Race / class / skill tier list

[The Many]

These are just my opinions, obviously. I'd like to hear yours as well!

Races

S tier:

Minotaur - Stats are ideal for front row melee or throwing weapons. Head Hunter is a very good perk. Can excel at any class except casters.


A tier:

Lizardman - Stats are slightly worse than Minotaur for melee characters but Endure Elements is a superb perk. Fast Metabolism is actually very good for casters too (energy regen).


B tier:

Insectoid - Stats are pretty lackluster but Quick is a pretty good perk if you combine it with other sources of cooldown reduction (15% from item, 10% from dodge tree if you want). Not a fan of chitin armor though.

Human - Unsurprisingly humans are pretty unremarkable and well-balanced. Skilled can give a nice head start to certain types of characters. I still don't recommend them over the above races though, they're not polarized enough to fill a party niche well.


C tier:

Ratling - The mutation gimmick is fun but let's face it, due to probability you're most likely going to get a lot of useless stats increased, and the actual useful ones will probably amount to maybe +5 optimistically? At the end of the day that barely makes up for their low initial stats in the first place! The extra carry weight is garbage when you could just pick a higher STR race in the first place. I generally put a ratling in my party because I like them thematically and somebody has got to eat all dat cheese, but objectively speaking I think they're the weakest race for sure.

Classes

S tier:

Barbarian - This class is straight up imbalanced compared to the other fighting classes. You want to play a tanky guy who never goes down? Play a Barbarian. You want to crack skulls with heavy weapons and ignore your defense? Play a Barbarian (and your defense will be good anyway regardless). You want to dual wield light weapons and backstab people? Play a Barbarian. Barbs can dish out more damage with either melee or throwing weapons, and they can stay alive longer, than fighters and knights respectively. The only thing Barbs aren't amazing at is spellcasting, and they're not even THAT bad at it.


A tier:

Alchemist - You wouldn't think it but the Alchemist is the best spellcaster class in the game. His HP is better than a Wizard's and equal to a Battle Mage, while his energy pool is equal to the BM and only marginally lower than the Wizard's. The class features he misses out on aren't a big deal at all and he can pretty much cast spells 97% as effectively as the actual caster classes... PLUS he's an alchemist and can gain you huge amounts of stat bonuses by brewing stat potions, as well as providing himself with a bottomless reserve of mana. If you use your alchemist as a caster you may want to put the actual Alchemy SKILL on another character though, since magic can be skill point intensive.Alchemists are very versatile and can use Missile Weapons pretty effectively as well.


B tier:

Fighter - while he can't quite compete on the same level as the Barb, the Fighter is a very solid class. The halved charge time on weapon abilities can vary wildly in usefulness depending on which weapons you're using, but in general it's pretty good. 25% energy reduction isn't very important though, it most likely won't let you do an extra move with your limited energy pool either way. If you like to make heavy use of weapon abilities you could do a lot worse than a Fighter in your party.


C tier:

Rogue - this guy is a bit disappointing because frankly the Barb is a lot better at rogue-like activities. He doesn't gain any particular advantage to backstabs or anything like that. The reduced dual wield penalty is complete garbage because said penalty only affects the BASE weapon damage anyway. It's a massive trade-off for literally a couple of points of damage. The increased crit chance would be nice but you're simply giving up way too much to get it. If evasion tanks and dex-based weapons were much stronger in this game you might be able to make a case to play a rogue but as it stands he just can't compete.

Battle Mage - if a spellcasting alchemist is just a bit too cheesy for you, you could do worse than a Battle Mage. Competent at spellcasting but not as squishy as a wizard, and some nice class features. Ultimately it's just a marginally better variant Wizard I think though; I wouldn't bother trying to actually put this guy in the front row, and you certainly can't afford to waste skill points on a weapon skill.

Knight - Similar to the rogue, this guy is SUPPOSED to fill a certain niche (tanking), but ends up just getting left in the dust by the superior Barbarian. Barb's higher HP pool outweighs the meagre extra protection a Knight gains in terms of survival, and additionally his higher damage output means you'll eliminate threats faster and therefore take less damage to begin with. I can't think of any reason to play a Knight over a Barbarian.

D tier:

Wizard - ironically, the pure dedicated spellcaster class is actually the worst choice for your spellcaster. He's only marginally better at casting spells, with a slight increase to his energy pool. However, an alchemist or battle mage can have an energy pool so close to a wizard's that it makes no matter, and the wizard doesn't have anything else going for him.


F tier:

Farmer - I'm surprised people take this class seriously to begin with; I'm fairly sure it's meant to be a joke/challenge class. Basically what we have here is a class with below-average stats and no skill points who MIGHT be able to gain 3 or 4 levels over the rest of your party temporarily during the early-mid game - and that's if you starve the rest of the poor ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s. Supposing he's 3 levels higher than the rest of your party, he'll basically have worse or equal stats to those guys, and only 1 more skill point than they do. Pretty soon the XP curve tapers off though and the rest of the party will catch right back up in level. Now he's just a weak guy with no class features and missing 2 skill points. tl;dr: he's mediocre at the beginning and terrible at the end. There's probably SOME way to make good use of a farmer but I certainly haven't found it yet.

Skills

(this is the hardest list to make by far, I think some of this stuff is really up for debate and I need to do more testing to confirm some of my thoughts)


S tier:

Alchemy - This skill is incredibly useful to the extent that it should be a no-brainer for literally every party. There are SO MANY herbs found in the game that whether or not you use an Alchemist, you should at the very least have somebody with this skill. Take it to 5 for the stat potions.

Throwing - A Minotaur Barb with this skill is an absolute powerhouse. Basically it puts out a ton of ranged damage and scales perfectly with Minobarbs, and ammo won't be a major concern. What more do you want?

Fire Magic - Overall I feel this school is the easiest to get through the game with. One rank, for Fireburst, will get you through the early game easily. It wrecks the tree monsters, the mummies, even the Devil Root boss fight. Later on it scales excellently, with Fireball covering you for the mid game and Meteor Storm dominating the late game. Take 5 ranks in this on every caster in my opinion.


A tier:

Heavy Weapons - The best approach for melee. Weapons like Bane are significantly better than anything in the light weapons category. The only disadvantage is that there's no way to dual wield them, but you won't miss it. Taking it to 5 is probably worth it just for the 20% damage for each rank, but Ogre Grip isn't particularly good since you can't dual wield either way and shields aren't all that great.

Air Magic - A pretty decent way to defend yourself on its own, with one rank being very useful for water-type enemies, putting a few ranks into Air Magic is also extremely good because it combines with the other schools to create the three best spells in the game: Frost Bolt, Fireball, and Meteor Storm. Take 1 rank in this as early as you can afford to, and increase it to 3 later once you're ready to transition to Meteor Storm. As a prerequisite for ALL of the good spells in the game, this should be on every mage without question.

Accuracy - Not the most exciting skill, but one with a solid benefit for each rank. Definitely worth taking a couple of ranks on your Minobarbs; their low DEX leaves a lot to be desired in terms of accuracy. And obviously if you want to melee attack from the back row you'll need 2 ranks of this, though there usually isn't much of a reason to bother with that.


B tier:

Missile Weapons - These are to throwing weapons what Light Weapons are to Heavy Weapons. Almost interchangeable, but just slightly worse. A perfectly serviceable combat skill though, and the armor ignore ability is actually quite good. Additionally, there isn't enough ammo to have TWO throwing characters, so Missile would be a good choice for the second guy. Biggest disadvantage is the uneven distribution of missile weapons you'll find throughout the game - you could go a pretty long time with a fairly weak weapon. Definitely take this one to 4; 5 is optional but there isn't much else to put the points into.

Light Weapons - what these guys lack in damage they make up for in speed. When dual wielding you can be throwing out and attack every 1.5 seconds on average, especially if you use cooldown reduction gear and/or abilities. The damage output definitely isn't as high, but if you nail the timing you can "stunlock" enemies in this game and the extra attacks REALLY help with that. Some light weapons also scale with DEX, and while those weapons aren't as powerful as the STR-based ones, a DEX-based dual wield character is still good because he'll pretty much never miss an attack which helps set up the aforementioned stunlocks. I don't think it's the optimal choice, but perfectly viable.

Concentration - Okay, so the actual direct benefits per rank are pretty lame. Most casters will benefit from the extra energy but the special ability is very lame. But you should get this skill anyway! Why? Because certain caster items and spells require ranks in Concentration, and a lot of those items and spells are very useful. QED, get concentration.

Critical - You need to take this if you want to go for backstabs, which isn't an entirely bad idea though it can be very situational. Situational is how I would describe this skill, really. It's not a huge amount of crit chance on its own but if you were to max it and use a weapon like the Scythe I think it would be a VERY nasty combo. Basically this skill is good, but not for everyone.


C tier:

Armor - I'm conflicted about this one. On one hand I think it's a no-brainer that the two characters in your front row should be wearing armor, preferably of the heavy variety. On the other hand though, all this skill actually does to help them WEAR said armor is lessen the evasion penalty. Evasion is pretty terrible in this game and I rarely find my characters (who have ranks in armor) dodging anything at all. I realize that negative evasion is mathetmatically worse than zero evasion, but if you're going to be getting hit 99% of the time anyway, what's the difference? In short, I'm not sure if the actual armor SKILL is all that good. Armor is amazing though. If you do take the skill, 4 ranks is enough. 5 doesn't offer much to make it worthwhile.

Athletics - And the award for most boring skill in the game goes to... Athletics! The extra HP is nice but there are many other ways to get more than enough HP. The extra carry weight is completely useless. Not much to say about this one, there's almost always a better choice you could make.

Water Magic - Big disappointment here. Frost Bolt is a superb spell, especially when combined with backstabs, but is it worth 3 skill points? Ice Shards is too weak to bother with, plus it requires earth magic (eww). If there was one more water spell in the game you could make a case for this skill. Right now it's underpowered. It's worth noting that you'll need 1 point in Water Magic to cast dispel though, which is the easiest way to deal with Air Elementals. This can be put off for a while but you should stick a point here once as soon as you have your basic stuff taken care of.


D tier:

Dodge - Literally the only good thing about this skill is the 10% cooldown reduction, but I have to admit that it is pretty damn good if you combine it with other cooldown reduction sources. You can dip into this one just for the CDR but the main benefit, 3 evasion per level, is absolutely useless and a laughable waste of skill points. Situationally worth taking to 3, NEVER worth taking to 5.

Earth Magic - Just awful. Poison Cloud is a joke and can only be used for cheesing enemies through grates, but there are easier and more fun ways to be cheap in this game. Poison Bolt is mediocre but somewhat decent but why even bother? The better spells are right there waiting to be used.


F tier:
Firearms - Sub-par damage output, finite amount of ammo with no way to ever recover it, chance of blowing up your entire party, frequently jams which makes an entire character useless for a significant time. Firearms bring absolutely nothing to the table that the other ranged skills can't do better. Never worth putting a single point into IMO, but if you have to, you pretty much are forced to take it to 5.

________________

whew, that was a lot to type out. Curious to see what people think of my assessments, and please post your list if it differs from mine!

[Stovich]

Originally posted by shadowcat:

Thats a lot of stuff.

A lot of worthless stuff. Damage output is more effective than the sum of every other attribute for an optimal party. The only thing lacking in a minotaur is accuracy, which can be recovered via the Accuracy skill and +5 Dexterity picks at creation.

+Your math is wrong, Ratlings gain +0 damage assuming you've chosen to use the superior strength-based weapons. (Ratlings start at 6 Strength)

+Evasion is worthless.

+32% resistance spread across all resistances is irrelevant. (think of this is +8% resist all for the sake of this argument)

[Sorril]

I'll jump on the rat v. mino bandwagon.

Assume you're setting up the Barb for your party. Regardless of race, you plan to build it the same way. Ignore the padding effects of stat potions.

Working from creation and before any perks are applied, a Mino Barb would start with 21 STR / 6 DEX / 19 VIT / 7 WIL assuming all points are dumped into STR and VIT, while a Rat Barb would start off with 12 STR / 12 DEX / 15 VIT / 10 WIL. On a direct comparison, that's a 9 point STR and 4 VIT deficit out of the starting gates for the Rat, with a lead of 6 DEX and 3 WIL (4 stat points lower to start). Obviously there will be differences if you choose to spec in any other manner.

Here's where headhunter v. mutation will start to rear their heads. Assuming you have even distribution of stats from mutation and from eating cheese, you're looking at a total gain of roughly 4 to 5 points in each category (for the completionist, assume maybe 18 points total) compared against a headhunter benefit of 8 STR by the end of the game. Result - Rat wins out in terms of stat growth by 6 generic points. For damage and health, that leaves rats (on average) trailing minotaurs by 12-13 STR, but catching up or passing their VIT depending on your final level at the end of the game. Unmodified, rats will just not catch up to minotaurs for damage.

In terms of the rest of the stats, however, rats will likely increase their lead on DEX up to 10 or 11 over the minotaur, which is the equivalent of 2 points in the aim skill and 3 points in the dodge skill (admittedly of limited use without the associated CDR perk). The WIL advantage is also there, but won't be of terrible use except for the contribution towards resistances and marginally decreasing the time until your next power attack if you don't feel like chugging a potion.

All that being said, take it with a HUGE grain of salt, because it is entirely possible that the random stat increases will not occur the way you're hoping they will.

In the end, I'd go with the rat, but mostly because I find the idea of a ratling barbarian to be funnier than a minotaur toting around a sack full of heads and I don't like throwing skill points into aim at low levels. If your party has an alchemist along, you're going to eventually be swimming in stat potions anyway, so no matter which you choose, you'll be able to tweak downsides of either to some degree.

[The Many]

Thanks for the analysis Sorril.

Originally posted by VG Purist:

Boy that means according to your guide my original party fails LOL.

I had in my party:

Human Battlemage (frontline caster)

Ratling Rogue (missle weapons)

Lizardman Alchemist (Firearms)

Mino Barb (go Lebron!!)

Heck I still beat the game and only needed one try to become the island master. I will say that there's something to be said about the fun one derives from hand cannons.

You can beat the game with just about any party; do what's fun and works well for you. Looks like a perfectly serviceable party honestly. I only made this list for my own personal entertainment and to give some general advice to newer players but by no means is there a "wrong" way to play the game

[Puzzlemint]

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

Alright, now for the next debate lurking in the corner... My most recent party has a Human Farmer caster with Skilled & Fast Learner. I am under two hours into the game with Ironman & Single-use Crystals @ Lost River, and my Farmer is level 10 already and slinging Meteor Storms, conjuring Force Fields, and casting Invisibility while the rest of my party is level 5. I am aware that farmer is an inferior class for most roles, but he is a perfect fit for wizards whom are entirely skill-dependent. The first half of the game is a cakewalk with such a character, and my other three characters are well fed and food is still plentiful.

I'm doing similar, but my Farmer also has Alchemy 5. I'm being a little more conservative with my food, making sure I always have one full crate for long expeditions and then feeding my farmer the leftovers, but I also left her at level 1 and rushed straight for the Spirit Mirror Pendant in the vault.

All that extra EXP and getting double mileage out of the Spirit Mirror Pendant (since your Farmer only needs it when eating, leaving it free for another character during battle) really adds up.

[B0Tzerker]

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

Yea, I don't really see how mutation can even be compared to a flat +50% resist all bonus or Minotaur Strength with Headhunter. Sorry guys, but every other race in Grimrock 2 has better racial trait picks.

You failed to say how Insectoid is better than Ratling.

[The Many]

I'm kind of agreeing with you guys at this point. When I put the guide up I'll have Ratling rated higher for sure. Still not as good as Liz or Mino though.

[B0Tzerker]

Originally posted by shadowcat:

Why have a minotaour in the front row? Most of the benefit you are thinking of is barbarian I believe.

A lot of people rave about Head Hunter, but I agree with you, +1 STR from Barbarian is better. I have a Mino Barb in my front row and prefer it to my Liz Knight. Both of them have maxed out Heavy Weapon.

[The Many]

Originally posted by A Puzzlemint of Legend:

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

Alright, now for the next debate lurking in the corner... My most recent party has a Human Farmer caster with Skilled & Fast Learner. I am under two hours into the game with Ironman & Single-use Crystals @ Lost River, and my Farmer is level 10 already and slinging Meteor Storms, conjuring Force Fields, and casting Invisibility while the rest of my party is level 5. I am aware that farmer is an inferior class for most roles, but he is a perfect fit for wizards whom are entirely skill-dependent. The first half of the game is a cakewalk with such a character, and my other three characters are well fed and food is still plentiful.

I'm doing similar, but my Farmer also has Alchemy 5. I'm being a little more conservative with my food, making sure I always have one full crate for long expeditions and then feeding my farmer the leftovers, but I also left her at level 1 and rushed straight for the Spirit Mirror Pendant in the vault.

All that extra EXP and getting double mileage out of the Spirit Mirror Pendant (since your Farmer only needs it when eating, leaving it free for another character during battle) really adds up.

Do you think Farmers can compete on the same level as the other classes? Really curious to see their potential if they have any.

It seems to me that they are strongest in the mid-game but is it worth it in the long run?

[Torham]

Nice summary. Pretty much what I was thinking from my experiences. I think my second playthrough would be:

2 Minotaour bars in front, heavy weapons (there is loads of good HW even early in the game)
2 alchemists in the back. One equipped with ranged and one specced as the mage.

My light weapons guy just isn't dishing out as much damage as my HW barbarian.

2 alchemists can grow everything, including crystall flowers simply by moving. This gives you a TON of stat potions and any other potion you might want.
I had a solid experience with ranged weapons so far, crosbow can crit for 150+ damage form the back row...

[Stovich]

Originally posted by Sand Puppy:

Originally posted by A Puzzlemint of Legend:

I'm doing similar, but my Farmer also has Alchemy 5. I'm being a little more conservative with my food, making sure I always have one full crate for long expeditions and then feeding my farmer the leftovers, but I also left her at level 1 and rushed straight for the Spirit Mirror Pendant in the vault.

All that extra EXP and getting double mileage out of the Spirit Mirror Pendant (since your Farmer only needs it when eating, leaving it free for another character during battle) really adds up.

Do you think Farmers can compete on the same level as the other classes? Really curious to see their potential if they have any.

It seems to me that they are strongest in the mid-game but is it worth it in the long run?

Absolutely worth it. Reaching level 17/18 is highly practical. Even level 19 is feasible, and if you picked human (which you should if you are a farmer), you will easily out-skill every character in your party at any given point of the game. Here is a table expressing the food-xp growth testing I have done for a Human Farmer with Fast Learner (+20% XP overall).

Format:
Level 0: X | N(T)
X = XP gained per Turtle Steak
N = # of Turtle Steaks needed to reach level from previous level
T = # of Turtle Steaks needed to reach level from level 1

Level 1: 298 | N/A
Level 2: 432 | 4(4)
Level 3: 572 | 5(9)
Level 4: 717 | 5(14)
Level 5: 866 | 6(20)
Level 6: 1017 | 6(26)
Level 7: 1172 | 6(32)
Level 8: 1328 | 6(38)
Level 9: 1486 | 6(44)
Level 10: 1646 | 6(50)
Level 11: 2114 | 6(56)
Level 12: 2277 | 10(66)
Level 13: 3055 | 11(76)
Level 14: 3220 | 16(92)
Level 15: 3387 | 16(108)
Level 16: 3555 | 15(123)
Level 17: 3724 | 14(137)
Level 18: 3895 | 27(164)
Level 19: 4066 | 25(189)
Level 20: .... | 123(312)

As you can see, the gaps between levels are MUCH smaller than non-farmers. You can easily reach an absurd level by just farming herder caps in the Herder Den boss room for an hour. Even if you don't farm herders, your farmer will almost always be several skill points ahead of the rest of the party. They still make poor melee characters due to a lack of any notable characteristics, but they make the best pure casters in the game because they will cast every spell you want sooner than any other class. If you don't believe me, just give it a shot yourself, it is a lot of fun roasting everything in the first half of the game with over-powering fire magic.

[The Many]

Originally posted by (+__::) Stovich:

Originally posted by Sand Puppy:

Do you think Farmers can compete on the same level as the other classes? Really curious to see their potential if they have any.

It seems to me that they are strongest in the mid-game but is it worth it in the long run?

Absolutely worth it. Reaching level 17/18 is highly practical. Even level 19 is feasible, and if you picked human (which you should if you are a farmer), you will easily out-skill every character in your party at any given point of the game. Here is a table expressing the food-xp growth testing I have done for a Human Farmer with Fast Learner (+20% XP overall).

Format:
Level 0: X | N(T)
X = XP gained per Turtle Steak
N = # of Turtle Steaks needed to reach level from previous level
T = # of Turtle Steaks needed to reach level from level 1

Level 1: 298 | N/A
Level 2: 432 | 4(4)
Level 3: 572 | 5(9)
Level 4: 717 | 5(14)
Level 5: 866 | 6(20)
Level 6: 1017 | 6(26)
Level 7: 1172 | 6(32)
Level 8: 1328 | 6(38)
Level 9: 1486 | 6(44)
Level 10: 1646 | 6(50)
Level 11: 2114 | 6(56)
Level 12: 2277 | 10(66)
Level 13: 3055 | 11(76)
Level 14: 3220 | 16(92)
Level 15: 3387 | 16(108)
Level 16: 3555 | 15(123)
Level 17: 3724 | 14(137)
Level 18: 3895 | 27(164)
Level 19: 4066 | 25(189)
Level 20: .... | 123(312)

As you can see, the gaps between levels are MUCH smaller than non-farmers. You can easily reach an absurd level by just farming herder caps in the Herder Den boss room for an hour. Even if you don't farm herders, your farmer will almost always be several skill points ahead of the rest of the party. They still make poor melee characters due to a lack of any notable characteristics, but they make the best pure casters in the game because they will cast every spell you want sooner than any other class. If you don't believe me, just give it a shot yourself, it is a lot of fun roasting everything in the first half of the game with over-powering fire magic.

Interesting. Will your other characters not level up a lot as well, if you grind for an hour in Herder's Den?

I'm gonna have to fool around more with farmers tomorrow and see what I think.

BTW can I list you as a contributor to my guide?

[Stovich]

Yes, the other characters gain experience too, but at a much slower, fixed rate:

Small Herders: +65 XP
Medium Herders: +75 XP
Big Herders: +95 XP

They gained a level and a half while grinding, but levelling "slows down" here because of the low fixed XP rate.

Meanwhile farmer was gaining over +2000 XP per cap almost from the start, and caps drop somewhere between 35%-45% of the time off medium & large herders. The rest of my party was level 8 when my farmer was level 14 in the Den.

I'd be happy to be listed as a contributor to your guide, thank you! However if this is your first guide... keep in mind that if you add contributors via the Toolbar, you give contributors full write & edit access to your guide. I made that mistake with my first guide, haha.

[The Many]

I'm aware, and feel free to edit or add anything you want actually. You've piqued my interest about farmers; I'm still not totally convinced that the extra levels are even worth it (level 15 is usually enough for all the skills you really need and i often find myself putting points in not-very-good skills just because there are no other options) but it's certainly something i need to play around with. At the very least I don't think it's fair to call them F tier anymore, heh

[Stovich]

Wow, this guide is formatted really nicely. Props on the color-coded racial ranks image.

And I agree. Extra caster levels drop steeply in value after the 10 skill points mark (that covers the essentials: Meteor Storm, Invis, Force Field, Light). Beyond that the only thing left is to level up Water Magic for Dispel & Frostbolt, which are nice but not essential by any means. Farmer suffers as a non-caster due to stat & trait deficiencies. They are a load of fun though if you want to laugh your way through the first half of the game, melting faces as a farmer.

[Puzzlemint]

And there's always the option of doing what I did: Putting Alchemy 5 on your Farmer/Caster to free up those skill points for another party member.