Fire Magic - why is it still so weak?

[Legowarrior]

Ever noticed that in Dominions 6, fire magic, though improved, is still really weak? What's with that?

[crawlers]

Originally posted by SaD-82:

Originally posted by crawlers:

If an enemy is spending 300 fire gems on a battle, that is quite an investment and unlikely to be something they can do multiple times in a game

Start playing with Abysia. ;)
You will drown in fire gems and can push out such stacks quite reliably.
And the fun part of this: It isn't your main army (or armies) - it's just something you create because you can and throw it onto your enemies to rage, raid and raze through their provinces. As a distraction.

If you get bored of it, you just switch them to research and will blaze through the research queues as if it would be snow. While summoning even more Flame Spirits every turn, if you like. (Eternal Pyre is a low research global fire gem generating ritual for 20 gems per turn - this on top of your normal gem generation and you see why gem production isn't really a problem for fire nations.)

If i have 300 gems of another path beside fire, i can do a lot more than cause some trouble for an unprepared stack one time (barring those cases of nations that rely heavily on weak undead chaff). A 300 gem vengeful water cast, for example.

[SaD-82]

Originally posted by crawlers:

A 300 gem vengeful water cast, for example.

Then do it if you have water gems - as Abysia you usually don't have.
But fire gems? An abundance of them - and you don't really need them as Abysia has some other paths it can go reliably. Thus opening the door to harass other players by doing things you won't feel as a strain to your own resources.
Those gems just exist and with them you can do massive damage to your opponents.
Any reason to not do it, then? Not really.

[crawlers]

It seems like you are describing a situation of where fire needs to have all the other paths unavailable in order to be a relatively viable choice just due to being inferior in a 1 to 1 comparison gem-wise when going big on it (small use of fire for lanterns etc is good, no questions there).

It seems like the best move with fire gems as abyssia is to try to trade them for a diff gem type and hope someone has a use for them (national fire sink like firebirds perhaps).

[SaD-82]

Originally posted by crawlers:

It seems like you are describing a situation of where fire needs to have all the other paths unavailable in order to be a relatively viable choice.

Not really.
I'm describing that fire isn't a bad path as it offers quite some versatile approaches to win the game. The mistake some people make, is to compare just the battlefield use of paths (and even then fire is quite powerful in itself) - but neglect how you can win games overall.

Taking those Flame Spirits, for example.
Research boost; not occupying commander recruitment slots when summoning them; destroying the economy of other players by raiding their provinces (province defense will melt away); forcing them to counter you hard - which takes away from other means to beat you, when you complement your approach with other magic paths (you force choices onto players - you act; and in a war the side which acts and forces choices onto others will usually win).
And all this just for some fire gems - you don't dip into your gold, resources or other means you have at hand.
And considering that fire gem income is usually the best in regards to gem-income-to-research-level of global rituals for generating gems, you have good income at hand to make pretty good use of fire.

Besides that: Going all in on just one path isn't usually to be recommended (there are exceptions to that, but overall branching off is better). Fire as a complimentary path or your main path can push really far and fast.

[Ragatokk]

Don't think I agree it is weak, incinerate is 18AN low fatigue, pillar of fire is 35 AP.
Got the best arrow buff spells, pyre, fatigue play, chaff killing battlefield enchantment...

Tough it is a little sad that fire arrow spells don't work with magic bows.

[Edge]

Fire nations get their starting fire gem income, and F3+ mages early so lots of sites from searching. This is great for distilling and transmuting.
</sarcasm>

[Domino]

I read this thread as not "Fire is weak" but "Fire is shallow". 1-2 points in fire gives you the majority of what you want from fire. Nations and mages that lean deeper in fire are rewarded with old age and strong counters. That the leadership buff is underwhelming and the boosters are double edged swords just adds salt to the wound.

There are couple of nations - Mari and Abysia in particular that lean heavy into fire. You can call it a bad plan to go "all in" but it's an uphill battle for those nations to pay for fire and then use their off paths because fire resistance and rain happens.

The asymmetry of paths is a feature, but it makes it hard to compare. I do agree with the assessment that a few adjustments could round it out much better. Specifically I think it should rewards 4-5 path fire mages and/or be made with the counters of rain and fire resistance in mind.

My 2 cents on what could help:

Significantly netter scaling on damage/aoe based on path levels

Fire shield could be a great buff to cast on units.

I believe the mod Dominions Enhanced had a 1 gem spell to recover fatigue which I felt offered a gem intensive offset rain.

A transformation spell for high level fire mages could salvage and upgrade the aging mages. A fire elemental chassis or to borrow from Dominions Enhanced again, a dragon seem thematic.

[Andkat]

Conceptually (given e.g. the myth of prometheus and the symbolism of fire with both cleansing and civilizational and technological progress and transition) it might make more sense to move Gift of Reason to Fire and to make Pyre of Catharsis remove Insanity and perhaps have a finite chance to neutralize Shattered Soul (so you can e.g. recast at the risk of crisping your guy)? Both fairly niche spells anyway but would at least carve out an interesting little niche there.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by Domino:

A transformation spell for high level fire mages could salvage and upgrade the aging mages. A fire elemental chassis or to borrow from Dominions Enhanced again, a dragon seem thematic.

If you're looking to try a mod solution, my BodyAndMind mod on the workshop offers a few funky transformation options for Fire mages.
And well, a lot of transformations in general too, I suppose.

[Zonk]

Originally posted by Andkat:

Conceptually (given e.g. the myth of prometheus and the symbolism of fire with both cleansing and civilizational and technological progress and transition) it might make more sense to move Gift of Reason to Fire and to make Pyre of Catharsis remove Insanity and perhaps have a finite chance to neutralize Shattered Soul.

Fire having Gift of Reason would take away from Astral's mind theme IMO.
EDIT: was thinking of Divine Name actually.
The Titan of Forethought (the Prometheus stand-in) also has Astral anyway, so it's not like Fire lacking a "civilization and reason" theme hurts him.
It would make sense if Astral or perhaps Astral/Nature could cure insanity/shattered soul and mental afflictions though, but that's beside the point.

What would be thematic and make Fire more useful outside direct damage is to allow its +2 attack/morale "battle fury" buffs to also work on animals; the spells are higher level or fatigue than the animal-only Nature equivalent, and it's not like animals are immune to mental effects from non-Nature paths anyway.
Fire nations with cavalry would appreciate being able to buff riders AND mounts with a single spell.

[Andkat]

I mean, Gift of Reason is already Nature not Astral.

[Zonk]

Originally posted by Andkat:

I mean, Gift of Reason is already Nature not Astral.

Sorry, I was thinking of the Astral version (Divine Name), which is more expensive but works on mindless beings too. My point is that it makes sense for Astral to make have a gift-of-reason-like effect, but for Fire it would be strange.
I could see more Fire getting more mental effects than just making people angry/furious, but turning troops into commanders just doesn't fit that IMO.
EDIT: perhaps "Fires of inspiration" giving research bonuses?

[Dezzmont]

Giving fire a 'high end' province targeting or personal mage buff research bonus, like fire 3, at a mid tier research level (so it comes online earlier than lightless lanterns), definitely would fit into the 'burn bright, peak early' concept of fire and would also pull double duty of, if not solving a problem, smoothing it over for nations with that level of fire access where they have to choose between using their fire gems to actually cast fire magic with their high end fire mages or using lightless lanterns, which is one of the more frustrating aspects of being a fire nation at the moment in my opinion.

[anaris]

Shattered Soul specifically exists to be uncurable, for historical reasons that more or less amount to "wow that's too many tartarians"

[crawlers]

I rather liked how some things are incurable, as it gives some lasting meaning and impact to inflicting them.