Maybe I just don't get JRPGs anymore.

[Timugen]

I loved some of the jrpg games on PS1 like xenogears, legends of dragoon, and ff7,8 just to name a few. But I have not played a jrpg in a long time so decided to try the genre again with this game. Everything I read said this was a really good representative of the genre.

Soooo I got to say that while the game is ok and even a bit fun at first it quickly became boring. The dialogue in the game is increadibly stillted and corny.

If this is considered a great jrpg then well, maybe the genre just ain't for me.

[SchwartZero]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από cowboysnakelogan:

I think you misunderstand. Bad dialogue can't be fixed by later good dialogue.

...No, I think you misunderstand. I didn't come here to disprove you of thinking that the dialogue is bad or not.

I came here to tell you over and over that the game will get better later on. And you respond everytime with ''B-But the bad dialogue...''

[Gabby]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από cowboysnakelogan:

No offense but I don't believe that claim. I run into people all the time on the net who claim this or that degree and then don't know much about the subject. But who knows, maybe your 1/1000 that is telling the truth.

At any rate it doesn't matter. Your degree doesn't make the writing in this game good. And your degree doesn't mean you can call crap gold and magically it becomes that.

No offense but I really don't care if you believe me or not. I don't care since unfortunately I don't need random people on the internet to approve my education. However, I probably wouldn't have it on my Facebook and all my profiles, including the school I go to if I wasn't legit. Nor would I come off as wise to start spouting lies. And seriously, this is the one you're going to call a false claim? How many people do you know that proudly claim they have a degree in what is considered by many to be a completely useless art? I could see you denying this if I was claiming to be a surgeon or an engineer for space craft, but seriously... your choice of what not to believe is with an English student?

Come on. That's just trying way too hard.

I've asked you for a single bit of legitimacy though, as have several people: give some examples.

At this point the word troll begins to pop into my head because your pattern at this point is to repeat a rather cruel remake about a game that people here obviously care about then refuse to actually back up your claim with information. Your ability to refute is based soley on your ability to try and deny anything said to you.

Hell, let's skip my degree. As an avid reader, one who's worked her way through the good and the bad of the novel scene, conquering epics like the Wheel of Time and trudging through the mediocre but popular works like Twilight (most painful days of my life) and the classics like everything Twain ever penned and Poe ever thought up, I have to say it again: I'm not seeing it.

So please, actually back up what you're saying with reasons. Give examples from the game of bad writing, childish prose, and the other things you've claimed. Otherwise, please stop. You're trying to legitimize why you dislike something by slamming it uselessly instead of just doing the integral thing and saying you don't like something because it doesn't match your tastes.

[GiggityMan]

I kind of agree with the OP on this one, the game does bring an excess of anime tropes, but if you're willing to stick it through, it gets a LOT better in the ladder parts of the game. Even in my review I say the first five hours or so are a slog, but once the plot picks up, it weaves an excellent character-driven story. The key is having the patience to see where the story leads and that patience is a rare commodity in today's instant-gratification world

[Gabby]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από GiggityMan:

I kind of agree with the OP on this one, the game does bring an excess of anime tropes, but if you're willing to stick it through, it gets a LOT better in the ladder parts of the game. Even in my review I say the first five hours or so are a slog, but once the plot picks up, it weaves an excellent character-driven story. The key is having the patience to see where the story leads and that patience is a rare commodity in today's instant-gratification world

I kinda ranted about this earlier so I'll tl;dr

There is nothing negative about tropes. Tropes are a common storyteller element used to equate something familiar with an audience to save time on having to explain every little detail. There's a common misconception of late that Trope = Bad, when in fact what you're trying to do is use the term "cliche", which is what a trope becomes when it's become so overused that it's lost it's intial meaning and no longer carries the significance it once did.

(It's actual irony here, the term cliche has in fact become so cliche that people no longer know what it means and therefore misappropriate another term to explain it. This is actual irony because you're literally using a word which means the opposite of your intention.)

A Japanese Role-Playing Game in an Anime style having an "excess of anime tropes" is about the same thing as saying that a Star Wars game feels too science fiction and space opera like. If an anime has an excess of anime tropes, that's probably because it's an anime. If a game with an anime aesthetic has too many anime tropes... follow the logic.

All stating that something has too many tropes of a certain type actually means is this: "Said genre is no longer something that's actually within my realm of tastes, therefore I dislike this."

Which honestly? Isn't wrong. It's okay to dislike something.

It's just annoying when you deal with someone like the person above who insists that they have to do everything they can to insult a game (and by proxy its audience) in order to justify their dislike. Taste is taste, but slamming on something is just being mean to the people who like it.

[Thighs & Glasses]

anyone who thinks a jrpg is "too anime" should really reassess their expectations before purchasing one.

just...wow.

[Wellborn Warrior]

I didnt read through the whole thread but OP, if you think the dialogue in this game is "stilted" or "corny" you never played the abomination that is FF13.

In fact, the writing of this 10 years old game puts nearly the entire current gaming landscape to shame.

Sure there are cliches, but thats not bad if the characters are well fleshed out and dont overstay their welcome. And this definitly is the case here. Hell the cliches doesnt come from nowhere, there based in reality.

[Timugen]

Ok this is getting a bit ugly. So I will try and restate what I mean without being insulting to those that like the writing in this game.

I'll start by saying I like some comic books. Ok, I'm a 31 year old man that still occasionally reads comics. And most of them certainly don't have good writing. The plots are often a convoluted mess that don't make much sense. But I enjoy it none the less.

I'm not judging anyone for likeing the writing in this game. I just think that for all the effort the devs put into the mechanics, art direction and many other aspects of the game they could have afforded more effort into the writing itself.

Many types of games don't rely much on the story or dialogue aspect, so they can get away with little effort in that area. Back in the day often times the dilogue of a game was actually written by a programmer, the person wasn't even a professional writer.

The problem is that this paticular genre of games does rely pretty heavily on the writting. A lot of the time playing the game is spent reading. For this game is seems to me they could of hired either better writters or maybe went through a few more drafts before finalizing it.

I'm not saying that the game sucks and you then by proxy suck if you like it. There are good qualities to the game. The writing though, is unfortunatley not one of them.

[Regret and Redemption]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από cowboysnakelogan:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Some Guy:

I suspect that may be the case - age does wonders to tastes (mind you i'm 36 and still enjoy this kind of stuff) - there are some things I feel are super cheesy and melodramatic now that I used to love in years past.

Just to end on a final note before I ignore this thread (lol) - to the point I have played up to, nothing has felt too melodramatic to me, and that's a huge plus in my books - there was a time I loved over-the-top theatrics, but I like a more natural pace nowdays.

Good example is early on Estelle reveals something heavy to Joshua, but then turns around and smirks and laughs at him for being worried about her - I expect and hope for some "real" scenes that touch the heart (be it anger, sadness, joy), but it's all about timing and level of saturation. :)

Anyway, time to let this hopefully sink - as there will always be fans, and always be critics - so I'll agree to disagree, it's all about personal taste.

I find this to be likely the case. I used to like those 'Goosebumps' books when I was in grade school. Now obviously I don't.

The odd thing is that this game ocasionally tries to deal with more 'mature' themes. So I would not say that it is strictly a childs entertainment product. One of the problems though is that it deals with said themes in the fashion that a 13 year old may try to write 'mature' content. As in very shallow.

Lol, fair enough. :) (I know I said i'd ignore the thread, but just couldent do it :P )

Though,

One of the problems though is that it deals with said themes in the fashion that a 13 year old may try to write 'mature' content. As in very shallow.

Maybe it has to with my level (or standards) of literacy, it jsut didnt feel like that to me. Heh, if you want a GOOD example of writing by a potential 13 year old, go try Shadowrun returns - now THATS cringeworthy.

I'm only sad to see some people cannot enjoy this the way I do, but then again we are all different with different tastes~ :)

[Professor Prinny]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από cowboysnakelogan:

Ok this is getting a bit ugly. So I will try and restate what I mean without being insulting to those that like the writing in this game.

I'll start by saying I like some comic books. Ok, I'm a 31 year old man that still occasionally reads comics. And most of them certainly don't have good writing. The plots are often a convoluted mess that don't make much sense. But I enjoy it none the less.

I'm not judging anyone for likeing the writing in this game. I just think that for all the effort the devs put into the mechanics, art direction and many other aspects of the game they could have afforded more effort into the writing itself.

Many types of games don't rely much on the story or dialogue aspect, so they can get away with little effort in that area. Back in the day often times the dilogue of a game was actually written by a programmer, the person wasn't even a professional writer.

The problem is that this paticular genre of games does rely pretty heavily on the writting. A lot of the time playing the game is spent reading. For this game is seems to me they could of hired either better writters or maybe went through a few more drafts before finalizing it.

I'm not saying that the game sucks and you then by proxy suck if you like it. There are good qualities to the game. The writing though, is unfortunatley not one of them.

From seeing the game as a standalone story viewpoint, yes the writing does fall short slightly. However, considering that this is a story telling the tale of how Joshua and Estelle grow up as bracers (mostly Estelle), the game has done an amazing job in doing so (setting up for SC where things get serious).

After all, the two of them are still kids in a sense so of course they'd throw around a bit of banter or some snarking every now and again although, adults and seniors may do so as well since when has anyone ever been entirely serious throughout their life?
Being an adult is knowing about when to have fun and when to be serious and the writing in the game balances this pretty well.

And adding onto the point of tropes, in this day and age it's much harder to come up with an entirely new kind of character than to use an existing trope and build around that or twisting it so people think it's new. Heck just coming up with an entirely new trope is extremely hard as it's got to be widely accepted and not conflict much with existing ones.

If we were to pinpoint what in particular you don't like about the writing, it might not be the writing itself but you may have grown tired of how certain writing tropes are applied to JRPGs themselves and that's understandable since stuff like Zombies are overused in a lot of western entertainment mediums.

[Admir]

I think it would've been better if you phrased your displeasure for the dialog as "It's not my type" or "there's something off about it, I don't know exactly but I just feel that way", than saying "the writing's not good". When people read the last part, they think you're making an objective observation and want to know why that's so, and even then, this is really is something that's subjective and dependant on one's taste, age, maturity, to name a few. There's nothing wrong with saying you don't like something, just be.. more concise about what you're feeling.

[Ghaleon]

No.. he is straight up saying the writing is "objectively" not good. "They should hire better writers for a game which involves so much reading"... 7 Pages of arguing and I still have yet to see a single example of what makes it lacking.

Personally I'm picky as fuu with my storytelling, even when I was like 12 years old, I read all of David Eddings' books and thought THEY were semi-juvinille at times, not to say they are the definition of literature sophistication or anything. But they are definately above the bar that would justify complaining about in an rpg game, that's for sure. When I play Trails, I feel the game does a pretty darn good job of expressing Estelle and Josh's feelings in a way that seems appropriate for people their age, yet still more mature for their age in SOME ways (but not all) and so on. I feel that each NPC had their own personality. Some were formal, some casual, some intelligent, some crude.

It's true that my opinion doesn't "prove" the game is well-written or anything, but I'm not the one making my own thread trying to convey that opinion. I think it's up to you to provide examples supporting your claims, rather than just repeating the same thing over and over again insulting something that many people here clearly care about.

Also, not a single person said you were insulting people for liking this game. I don't think you really thought people were actually thinking that so much as you were trying to act meek while still failing to support or withdraw your point. But if you really did think people were thinking you were insulting this game's fans, I can only conclude that your reading comprehension is too flawed to really judge this game's writing.

[Timugen]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ghaleon:

No.. he is straight up saying the writing is "objectively" not good. "They should hire better writers for a game which involves so much reading"... 7 Pages of arguing and I still have yet to see a single example of what makes it lacking.

Personally I'm picky as fuu with my storytelling, even when I was like 12 years old, I read all of David Eddings' books and thought THEY were semi-juvinille at times, not to say they are the definition of literature sophistication or anything. But they are definately above the bar that would justify complaining about in an rpg game, that's for sure. When I play Trails, I feel the game does a pretty darn good job of expressing Estelle and Josh's feelings in a way that seems appropriate for people their age, yet still more mature for their age in SOME ways (but not all) and so on. I feel that each NPC had their own personality. Some were formal, some casual, some intelligent, some crude.

It's true that my opinion doesn't "prove" the game is well-written or anything, but I'm not the one making my own thread trying to convey that opinion. I think it's up to you to provide examples supporting your claims, rather than just repeating the same thing over and over again insulting something that many people here clearly care about.

Also, not a single person said you were insulting people for liking this game. I don't think you really thought people were actually thinking that so much as you were trying to act meek while still failing to support or withdraw your point. But if you really did think people were thinking you were insulting this game's fans, I can only conclude that your reading comprehension is too flawed to really judge this game's writing.

Reason I don't give specific examples such as 'character A said "......." and then character B said "....."' is because that would create pointless arguments. Basically some commenters would defend silly stuff through convoluted arguments. I had no desire to engage in that type of conversation.

Frankly, the obsurd nature of some of the dialogue is obvious. Also when I say absurd I don't mean stereotype or anything like that. I mean that you can clearly see through how the author is poorly trying to convey a concept. It breaks the illusion of feeling that the characters are real.

If you didn't pick up on that, then I queastion your 'reading comprehension' :P

[Sunder]

I'll repeat what I said in the last page...total troll. Just stop feeding him. He's just going to say the same vague statements and be completely unsatisfying to debate with.

[MichaelXC]

The OP is claiming that the dialogue is bad, but the problem is not everyone agrees that the dialogue is bad and asks for examples, but he assumes that everyone should see that the dialogue is bad. You can't just say "It's so obvious that the writing is horrible, there's no need for me to provide examples, how is something so obvious to me not be obvious to everyone else?" Herein lies the problem to that asssumption, the reason why they disagree is because they obviously don't see what you see, what's "obvious" to one may not be "obvious" to another.

In the end, the burden of proof falls on the one making a claim.

[Admir]

As MichaelXC puts it.