Spoilertastic questions about the story thread

[Ghaleon]

So yeah, don't read this at all if you want to avoid spoilers about FC. That said I haven't played SC and beyond, and do not wish to be spoilered about them, I only wish to openly discuss story elements in FC that are rich with spoilers.

Anyway, I just finished the game and intend to play thru again but some things have been nagging me.

1: Is this just an oversight on the story-writer's part? Did some parts get rewritten without being reviewed? I recall that when you first meet colonel richard in chapter 1, he introduces himself and tells you that he served under your father.

THEN in the final chapter when Nial gives you his information on the intelligence division, he says colonel richard was an officer under your father, then josh/estelle are like "So he WAS working under our father's command!"

THEN when he drags you off to the royal castle's bar and you are trying to meet hilde, he tells you he worked under your father AGAIN, but THIS time, josh/estelle are like "no way!!? REally!??! No, EFFING WAYYYY".. durr?

2: Not sure if the game tells you definitively or not, maybe I missed an npc chat mentioning it but was it confirmed or not if the evil mayor dude who burned the orphanage down was mind-control thing'd like don/the ravens?

3: That crystal you return to the first mayor after thwarting the sky bandit girl, does it become part of the story in a future game? They kinda just dropped it in FC and I can't help but wonder why the skybandits were told to try and get it.

4: Back to the evil mayor dude who burned the orphanage. The game tells you he did it cuz he wanted big income generating luxury homes on that land, which is fine and believeable and all. But uhh.. why did/would the intelligence division assist with that goal? Or why would they coerce him into doing that? I can't think of any possible reason of why that would be important for them to bother themselves with.

5: Right at the end when Professor alba says he restored josh's memory and josh heroic blue screens...what exactly is it that josh learned that was so disturbing? He already knew he was an assasin, I get the impression he already knew he was orphaned by cassius after failing to try and assasinate HIM. He seems to have known about his old organization since he knew mr. ash blonde hair was an old aquaintence (and remembered his hair colour no less based on his reaction when he was told about it). The only thing he seems to have learned was the professor's true identity, which isn't exactly blue screen material if you knew everything else already imo.


Last a couple questions about future games, I don't think the answers will really spoil anything for anybody but whatever.

1: That bracer girl in the final chapter who keeps calling you a newbie is *SOOO CUTEE!!* *SQUEEE*.. does she appear more than rarely in SC?

2: I thought the final dungeon/boss was awfully typical for all the other falcom games I've played (pretty much just Ys). As in, some "ancient" civilization's technologically-advanced ruins/stronghold with some kind of robot AI weapon at the end. Does the whole series do this like ys seems to love doing too?

[ladynadiad]

1. No comment here, my own thought is the fact that Estelle's mind is like a sieve and she forgets lots of stuff.

2. It was confirmed that Mayor Dalmore was missing memories like Don Capua was. I think it was Julia who mentioned it as a part of the plot.

3. Not that I know of. Josette was just after it because a piece of septium that huge would be worth a lot of money. Until Don was mind controlled, that was more their typical sort of crime was small objects worth a good amount of money.

4, It was very simple, it was pretty much the same intention as controlling Don Capua. The intention was to ensure his capture eventually by the Intelligence Division to Colonel Richard could gain more popularity which would make it easier to pull the coup off. What he didn't expect was the Royal Guardsmen being called. The sheer amount of donations the orphanage was able to obtain at the festival definitely shows people felt the arson was horrible so the Colonel catching Dalmore would be good for him. Notice how it was swept under the rug who actually committed the act of arson?

5. It was the fact that he was spying on Cassius is my thought. Joshua commented early in the game about a promise he made to Cassius. What that promise is isn't really touched upon too well here so I'm going to spoiler tag it to be safe. He promised that he would leave if any harm would come to Estelle or Cassius because of him. Pretty much Weissmann told him that he had been breaking that promise. Also, the manga shows this a bit better, but it seems that Joshua thought Mr. Ash Blond hair was dead, which was why he was so shocked each time he heard that voice, so that likely was another thing. While Joshua did remember him, it was obvious his memories of that man were a bit messed up from some of his comments.

And the other questions:

1. She's a party member in the prologue of SC, don't think she joins up at all after that. She is a party member in the 3rd for most of the game though.

2. SC's final dungeon is kinda like that, but the boss is not. The final dungeon is an ancient floating city. The boss is kinda hard to explain without outright spoilers, we'll just say a monster. The ending also has a scene that reminded me very much of Ark of Napishtim's ending. The 3rd's final dungeon is a castle and keep in mind that most of the 3rd is actually a pretty atypical setting for Falcom. The final boss there is actually a set of four battles, three are mechanical and the last is more like a monster.

I can't comment as much on Zero onwards.

[Cyouni]

1. Richard didn't actually say anything regarding the fact that he served under then-Colonel Cassius until they chatted with him in the lounge. Cid mentioned it at the end of Chapter 3, and Nial's information confirms it. The talk with Richard is the first chance that they actually get detailed information regarding the war and Cassius's role in it.
2. Mind-controlled. If you look carefully, there's an interesting purple tint to their eyes at certain points, especially when they're confronted and agitated. Though that may just be me.
3. It was just because it was expensive. 'Tis why they grabbed it.
4. Good publicity for Richard pretty much sums it up. They play up the 'threats' of the Sky Bandits and the Mayor to be heavier than they might otherwise be, and then they take credit for the capture.
5. I'd say the whole "you were working for me the past 5 years, and indirectly contributed to all the problems that happened" is a pretty good reason. Alba goes pretty heavily into exactly how Joshua helped with that.

[omgfloofy]

Originally posted by Ghaleon:

2: I thought the final dungeon/boss was awfully typical for all the other falcom games I've played (pretty much just Ys). As in, some "ancient" civilization's technologically-advanced ruins/stronghold with some kind of robot AI weapon at the end. Does the whole series do this like ys seems to love doing too?

I'm going to jump in on this with a bit of Kiseki lore for you, at least.

About 1200 years ago, there was a massive disaster, a great collapse of all of the ancient and powerful civilizations. At this point, everything was completely undone, "not a blade of grass remained," to use a phrase from the engrish'y description of Trails in the Sky that Falcom released. What caused it, what happened to the people afterwards- a lot of that is still a mystery, but it seems to imply that a lot of life was lost and basically, the Zemuria continent was reduced to the stone age again. Life 'restarting' is the beginning of the Septian Calendar used in the series.

Much of the period immediately afterwards is called the dark ages- this is a period of turmoil as civilizations were trying to find where they stood, people trying to get what they had left, and all out chaos. Wars, struggles, you name it. This kept going until about 500SE when the Septian Church was formed and "brought order from chaos."

There's a lot of stuff going on that will be making callbacks to the ancient civilizations- especially due to the fact that they had very powerful technology- the remnants of their technology is referred to as 'Artifacts.' During FC, you have experienced at least a few remnants of such things: the Black Orbment is one, and much of what you found in the Sealed District would count as the same. The Septian Church has a ban on people possessing Artifacts, as well, claiming that they are too much for people.

It wasn't until about 50 years before the game when the Orbal Revolution happened- which was kind of like the industrial revolution for us. It was basically the invention of the orbment and everything just kind of went nuts from there. The development of orbments were also created based on Artifacts.

Much of the stuff that will be happening in the series will be based on the remnants of the ancient civilizations, or civilizations that rose during the dark ages. Then there will be more about the Septian Church coming out into the open, too, since they're a pretty big political player in stuff as well, because of this deal with Artifacts, as well.

Basically, everyone's playing with the legacy of the ancient civilizations in this, and some are trying to uncover the legacy, while others are trying to keep it buried.

As of Sen no Kiseki (the 6th game in the series), we still don't know what caused the great collapse, but some games *cough3rdcough* have given some interesting hints in its direction.

** I apologize for this going around everywhere. It's 4am and somehow I'm still wide awake here. lol

[Erpy]

Apparantly, Joshua was missing A LOT of memories himself. Weissmann erased most of Joshua's memories from before the assassination attempt on Cassius because Joshua was meant to be a mole and Weissmann didn't want to risk Joshua giving Cassius any information whatsoever about his secret society. The only thing Joshua really remembers from his past was our silver-haired friend, but even there he's missing details.

When Weissmann snapped his fingers, all of that came back at once. Naturally, the result was not pretty.

But what truly caused Joshua's BSOD was Weissmann's revelation that Joshua being taken in by Cassius and becoming his adopted son was all part of the plan. Weissmann knew Cassius was way too powerful for Joshua to kill, the assassination attempt and the following attempt on Joshua's life were all part of a scheme to get a mole inside Cassius' home. Joshua was "programmed" by Weissmann to regularly report on Cassius' dealings and then forget about it afterwards. The knowledge that he unwittingly, but actively worked against his adopted family all this time and that his life with the Brights was all part of Weissmann's orchestrated infiltration job was what really broke Joshua.

[Ghaleon]

Thanks guys, I still think there was some silliness with #1 but I'll pay closer attention to every bit of it on my replay. Which I just started now and am just about to get the quest where the big crystal was found stolen in the mayor's home. In my first playthru, I found the "slowness" of the story to actually be a part of what really made me like this game. Having a slow start like that makes me feel more close to the main cast. I don't think of them as generic instant-heroes. But people to care about.

Alas, in a replay, the slowness is definately a drag =P. I want to mash thru alot of hte text but I have to be careful that I don't miss anything that may make me go "aha". In my first playthru I never thought Professor alba was a badguy neccesarily, but I did think it really odd he got the special talking portrait treatment for a character that does so little and shows up so rarely. So I did suspect there was more to him than to yet be revealed, but had no idea how he would turn out.

But anyway just finished the part where you bump into him on the roof of the tower, and I can't help but wonder what he's doing there, and why he's affecting josh then. I mean he obviously manipulated josh towards his "master plan" already since Cassius already went off on his errand that was all part of the plan. So what memory manipulation is being done at the tower? Or is it just a side effect of being near him at all?

If that's the case I sitll wonder why he's on the tower. If he needs to prepare the towers for whatever that happens at the final boss of hte game (I assume that is one of the towers mentioned as being activated when the gospel does its thing down there), I would have assumed he would have done that long ago since as mentioned, he already set his master plan in motion.

Maybe that'll become obvious to me in my current playthru..Don't think so though since I don't recall bumping into him again until much later.

As for the lore blurb, thanks, Though some of that could easily be determined just by playing FC, some of that I wasn't aware of such as the length of dark ages, the fact that it supposedly was ended due to the church, etc...I'm just waiting for the stereotypical "the church is secretly evil". I hope this series doesn't do it. Seems so predictable in JRPGs now.

AS for Josh's heroic blue screen, yeah...kind of a duh on my part. Not sure why I failed to consider the fact that he is distraught that he suddenly realizes he was acting as a spy the whole time. That being said, he KNOWS he was under the influence of mind control and memory control so like..err... not really sure why he'd feel bad for himself. He IS supposed to be cold and logical so I don't really think running off to seek revenge on his own is really the appropriate course of action. Sure it might be fitting due to his promise to leave if he feels he is any danger. But If he wanted to keep cassius/estelle safe, you would think that he would have at least TOLD them his most recent revelation? It's not like he thinks they'll simply be left alone if they don't know since he knows they were already a target for manipulation all along!

Dumb josh! big dumb.

anyway, thanks again for the responses.

[omgfloofy]

Originally posted by Ghaleon:

As for the lore blurb, thanks, Though some of that could easily be determined just by playing FC, some of that I wasn't aware of such as the length of dark ages, the fact that it supposedly was ended due to the church, etc...I'm just waiting for the stereotypical "the church is secretly evil". I hope this series doesn't do it. Seems so predictable in JRPGs now.

So far, the series hasn't done it. At most, I don't think it will to a degree. It won't be that simple, anyway, if something of that sort happens. There are extremely trustworthy people in the church- two of whom are the lead characters in 3rd- so you will be able to have some faith in who they are and what they're doing. (lol)

The church seems to be in an interesting position, though- and part of me figures that they're kind of in the 'what we need, but not what we want' sort of manner, if that makes sense. There's been some heavy-handed things from them that kind of makes you raise an eyebrow, but the greater scheme of things from it seem to be for the best. They're a very curious and interesting organization that is still one of the biggest mysteries in the series to date.

(A lot of us are excited, because there's been hints that we may learn more about the church in Sen no Kiseki II, as well. lol)

And don't worry about the responses. I love the lore in this series, and that's why I'm such a nerd for it. :D

[ladynadiad]

Originally posted by Ghaleon:

AS for Josh's heroic blue screen, yeah...kind of a duh on my part. Not sure why I failed to consider the fact that he is distraught that he suddenly realizes he was acting as a spy the whole time. That being said, he KNOWS he was under the influence of mind control and memory control so like..err... not really sure why he'd feel bad for himself. He IS supposed to be cold and logical so I don't really think running off to seek revenge on his own is really the appropriate course of action. Sure it might be fitting due to his promise to leave if he feels he is any danger. But If he wanted to keep cassius/estelle safe, you would think that he would have at least TOLD them his most recent revelation? It's not like he thinks they'll simply be left alone if they don't know since he knows they were already a target for manipulation all along!

Dumb josh! big dumb.

anyway, thanks again for the responses.

This is actually covered much better in some supplemental material. See, when Joshua recovered his memories, he'll also be recalling that he willingly agreed to the mind control. Yes. he was tricked into it, but he still agreed to it. He was told it would make him stronger and ensure the success of his mission. The other thing is that Joshua can be used as a weapon against those he's grown to care about. What he's doing there is removing himself from the presence of people Weissmann knows he cares about because Weissmann could very easily make him kill those people if he so pleases. He knows if he wants to have a future with Estelle or really anyone, Weissmann must be removed from the picture.

And don't think he's rushing off and doing something stupid. He will be approaching this with a plan in mind. Everything he did was very well thought out and planned, we just don't have the whole story yet at the end of this game.

[Stabbey]

I'm replaying the game again to see all the clever foreshadowing.

It's clear that Joshua's memories of Wisseman were wiped, but I think he remembers that he was an assassin or at least that he did things along those lines. In the final scene he talks about feeling that the past five years as a wonderful dream, which implies that he did remember being a killer even during those past five years. Additionally, at Valleria, it's revealed that Estelle made a promise not to ask about Joshua's past until he was ready to say it himself.

Certainly he is guaranteed to remember that he was sent to kill Cassius and that he was attacked by "the magician's" accomplices after failing.

The impression I got, based only on the end scene, is that the promise Joshua made to Cassius was that he would hunt down and kill the magician who made Joshua a killer. That would seem to fit with Cassius saying that he has to decide what path to choose (the path of staying a Bright and being a Bracer, or leaving to hunt down the magician and being a killer again).

[Talkkno]

Originally posted by Ghaleon:

But anyway just finished the part where you bump into him on the roof of the tower, and I can't help but wonder what he's doing there, and why he's affecting josh then. I mean he obviously manipulated josh towards his "master plan" already since Cassius already went off on his errand that was all part of the plan. So what memory manipulation is being done at the tower? Or is it just a side effect of being near him at all

That just seems to be a side effect from the manipulation.

You'll notice when you talk to Kurt during the tournament that he's also suffering from some headaches while Alba is coincidentally sitting fairly close by, but feels better after leaving the stadium.

[Adunsavior]

Originally posted by ladynadiad:

Originally posted by Ghaleon:

AS for Josh's heroic blue screen, yeah...kind of a duh on my part. Not sure why I failed to consider the fact that he is distraught that he suddenly realizes he was acting as a spy the whole time. That being said, he KNOWS he was under the influence of mind control and memory control so like..err... not really sure why he'd feel bad for himself. He IS supposed to be cold and logical so I don't really think running off to seek revenge on his own is really the appropriate course of action. Sure it might be fitting due to his promise to leave if he feels he is any danger. But If he wanted to keep cassius/estelle safe, you would think that he would have at least TOLD them his most recent revelation? It's not like he thinks they'll simply be left alone if they don't know since he knows they were already a target for manipulation all along!

Dumb josh! big dumb.

anyway, thanks again for the responses.

This is actually covered much better in some supplemental material. See, when Joshua recovered his memories, he'll also be recalling that he willingly agreed to the mind control. Yes. he was tricked into it, but he still agreed to it. He was told it would make him stronger and ensure the success of his mission. The other thing is that Joshua can be used as a weapon against those he's grown to care about. What he's doing there is removing himself from the presence of people Weissmann knows he cares about because Weissmann could very easily make him kill those people if he so pleases. He knows if he wants to have a future with Estelle or really anyone, Weissmann must be removed from the picture.

And don't think he's rushing off and doing something stupid. He will be approaching this with a plan in mind. Everything he did was very well thought out and planned, we just don't have the whole story yet at the end of this game.

I think instead of seeking revenge, he really just wanted to die in the process, alone, so he can do no more harm, and not dragging anyone he cares about into this mess.

His worst fear may be that when holding Estelle in his arm and falling asleep, then waking up with a dagger in hand with Estelle's blood on it. Sure, Caussis may still be a more than he can chew on, but Estelle will never stand a chance.

So he removed himself from the ones he cared.

But did he really wanted to success in stopping Weissiman? I don't think so either. If he really wanted to do that, spilling the beans with a certain over-powered former S-rank bracer first will definately make things easier. Think about having the full might of the bracer guild and military behind your back.

Assassinate Wessiamn by yourself? Nah, just have the top bracer find locate hideout and carpet bomb the place to cinders with airships. Even if that doesn't kill them, it'd be annoying for them to have bombs dropping on their heads three times a day.



If I were Estelle, I'd smack Joshua in the head with my bo staff. Hope that'd knock some sense into him. He deserves more than poor Olivier.

[Ze]

For the big quartz point, I'll just mention that the purpose of that quartz was stated as being simply a gift for the Queen. So I think that plot point is already tied up.

As a side detail that popped up quite a few times, remember that ancient dragon they mentionned a few times? They really had me going at first that it was just some fairy tale. But now, especially with the Liberl News Final Edition, I get the feeling that dragon will be a big plot point and maybe the goal of the towers somehow... Or is it really just that much of an elaborate red herring? Is the dragon of any relevance later on?

[kikixeni]

Originally posted by Ghaleon:

AS for Josh's heroic blue screen, yeah...kind of a duh on my part. Not sure why I failed to consider the fact that he is distraught that he suddenly realizes he was acting as a spy the whole time. That being said, he KNOWS he was under the influence of mind control and memory control so like..err... not really sure why he'd feel bad for himself. He IS supposed to be cold and logical so I don't really think running off to seek revenge on his own is really the appropriate course of action. Sure it might be fitting due to his promise to leave if he feels he is any danger. But If he wanted to keep cassius/estelle safe, you would think that he would have at least TOLD them his most recent revelation? It's not like he thinks they'll simply be left alone if they don't know since he knows they were already a target for manipulation all along!

Dumb josh! big dumb..

I agree. A lot of people say Joshua is a Gary Stu, but I think this is where he's not. We'll have to wait for SC to see how they handle his actions, but to me he's made a huge mistake. At the end of FC, some of the most powerful people in Liberl are his allies, and he runs away from that. Estelle has been trying to teach him to open up and trust in others for the entire game, and he shuns that lesson entirely.
Of course, he's just learned something very horrifying and his actions are understandable. The whole thing just shows that he's a complicated character with some flaws.

Regarding the dragon... I don't know too much, but (minor spoilers) the dragon does exist in SC. The japanese trailer for the game shows this very clearly, and very awesomely.

[Erpy]

The teasing trailer at the end of FC already shows a flash of him, I believe.

[omgfloofy]

Originally posted by kikixeni:

I agree. A lot of people say Joshua is a Gary Stu, but I think this is where he's not. We'll have to wait for SC to see how they handle his actions, but to me he's made a huge mistake. At the end of FC, some of the most powerful people in Liberl are his allies, and he runs away from that.

This.

A lot of people complain about Joshua's "perfectness" but there are some huge flaws in him and SC is all about them- and you will even see them exploited. The situation they were in was Joshua's 'bread and butter' - it was his time to shine. SC will be Estelle's time to really show just how amazing she is.

[Reality]

A couple things I noticed in my second playthrough:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=296068297

Who's THIS guy? He looks like Kurt and Schera seems to know him from the dialogue I didn't screenshot. But I've never seen him before and didn't see him again in my first go-around.

Here's the note about the dragon, very early in the game:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=296068205

These Carnelia books have to be more than fiction... right?

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=296068223

Josh has a funny way of saying things sometimes - this seems like a hint to SC?

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=295914306

And finally, after seeing the ending already of FC, I cannot UNSEE the creepiness here. This is the second shot I've taken of his portrait with this expression, the first came in the Prologue at Esmelas Tower:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=297811972