Jacob and Esau need some changes

[Lupphin]

I finished all pre-repentance marks (less Greed/Greedier yet) with Jacob and Esau on hard, got some good combos but, seriously, I didn't had any fun playing with them.
I like all unique characters in Isaac (The Lost, Keeper, The Forgotten and even Jacob and Esau) because of their eccentric gameplays, but Jacob and Esau, even their idea being good, the game dont seen to be adaptable to their gameplay - and some controls dont even work properly.

- To the part of gameplay adaptability, all the other unique chars has some exclusivities that helps them in a offensive or deffensive way (or both), but J&E dont have any, other then being a double character. Yes, you can take both items on choise pedentrals, what helps a lot, but you still have to take care of two chars with respective lifes and respective hitboxes, what is extremely bad against certain enemys and bosses. Some attacks of mega-bosses, for example, require a precise dodge to avoid damage, what cannot be done with J&E. This make these battles turn into a lucky factor of who's gonna be hitten - the two o them, which let you last longer, or one more than other, what results almost every time in death.
- To the part of controls, some of you that played with J&E must have sensed this as well, but just the use of the drop button (ctrl by default) to stop Esau is not a good solution. While you're pressing the drop button, you cannot use your active item, what screw up some situations, plus it drop your trinkets and pickups if you hold for to long (what is not a problem at all, but is annoying). And, if you have an item that let you hold more active items and/or pickups, the drop key is too the key to change the selected item/pickup, what creates a mess in some circunstances, knowing you must press the drop button to use pickups.... too.

In resume, Jacob and Esau has a interesting mechanic of gameplay, but the game dont seen to give them fair advantages to compensate their desadvantages (and all Repentance nerfs on items doesn't help a single bit about this), plus they need a better control config, like a different button to hold Esau or use pickups.

[Revalopod]

agree. I completed all marks with J&E and didn't really enjoy it at all. It wasn't particularly hard actually, especially compared to some of the other characters, but the fun factor is very low :C

[Elsuya]

Originally posted by Revalopod:

agree. I completed all marks with J&E and didn't really enjoy it at all. It wasn't particularly hard actually, especially compared to some of the other characters, but the fun factor is very low :C

Tbh, normal route Jacob & Esau isn't THAT horrible.
Ofc it's still bad, because it's them but I actually was enjoying myself. The mechanic at the time was interesting and unique.
AND THEN ALT FLOORS AND DOGMA CAME IN.

[HeraldOfOpera]

The fact that actual Co-op has several quality of life features that J&E need more yet don't have will never stop being dumb.

[XZero]

While you're pressing the drop button [...] it drop your trinkets and pickups if you hold for to long (what is not a problem at all, but is annoying).

It seems like you won’t drop items with J&E if you are moving. I had to stop in place for a noticeably shorter time before the items dropped.

[Man of Culture]

The drop button being the select control of character button as well is pretty dumb but you don't drop items if you're moving, only if you're holding still, which is nice. Though given how the character is designed I don't know what a better option would be. The keyboard is pretty limited in what would constitute a comfortable layout without making the controls too overly complex.

Anyone have any suggestions?

[Lupphin]

Originally posted by The Merovingian:

The drop button being the select control of character button as well is pretty dumb but you don't drop items if you're moving, only if you're holding still, which is nice. Though given how the character is designed I don't know what a better option would be. The keyboard is pretty limited in what would constitute a comfortable layout without making the controls too overly complex.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Strange, almost every time I hold Esau to place bombs, avoid traps, etc, he drops his trinket/pickup, even if I still moving Jacob. Because of that I started to press and release ctrl after 2-3 seconds just to avoid this.
I think change the Hold and Use button of J&E to Shift would be good. This would leave Ctrl as his normal usage (Change selected item and drop items) and leave Shift to J&E. I know it would be a key just for them, but the use of a new key seems unavoidable knowing the needs of their mechanic.

Originally posted by Elsuya:

Tbh, normal route Jacob & Esau isn't THAT horrible.
Ofc it's still bad, because it's them but I actually was enjoying myself. The mechanic at the time was interesting and unique.
AND THEN ALT FLOORS AND DOGMA CAME IN.

Yeah, this scare the ♥♥♥♥ out of me too, even more knowing I have to fight Mother with her damn fistula attack. No, srly, that attack is the worst in all the game. If you dont have enough speed, well... https://i.imgur.com/4S9ACQLh.jpg
And talking about bosses, have you guys fought Colostomia and Singe with J&E? These things can completely ruin your run, especially Singe - his arena alone is totally not adaptable for J&E. If you get separate in there....