Tainted/B-Side Lost is incredibly unfun, difficult, and unrewarding.

[ICANDOTHAT2]

This character is genuinely a lot more difficult than Pre-DLC Lost, I've spent my last 10 hours of playtime on him and I'm losing my mind. This is the ONLY TIME I'm gonna say "Repentance is too hard" and feel self-justified without backing down.

The issue isn't even that I can't finish floors with him. I've made it to the Womb and the Depths like 7-8 times, but even the smallest mistake ruins it all. For me, Polyphemus/High-Damage & Low-Tears start worked out the best so far, I always made it to at least Depths with that, but then something unexpected always has to happen. The Bloat randomly hitting me with Brimstone in boss rush when I haven't even seen he spawned due to the size of the room, Toxic Shock instantly killing enemies that explode into tears killing me in less than 0.5 seconds after I enter the room, getting Missing No. during Curse of the Blind that dooms me next floor, and I literally haven't seen a single Blank Card in the shop during my 10 hour Tainted Lost session even though I prioritise going to the shop every floor.

The game also has a lot of cheap shot moments, and the Holy Mantle really does feel like the only thing that can potentially make The Lost feel any bit fair beyond "kill it before it can do anything", which you can't do for anything with armor like Hush, Delirium, and Mega Satan now, or about 99% of your runs, the latter of which is a real problem for Tainted Lost. Best bets are to hope for the Blank Card, so you can get a 2 room charge holy mantle at the very least. or hope for them to make Delirium less garbage.

With the old Lost, at least you were able to restart until you found Dead Cat, Gnawed Leaf, Holy Mantle, or something. Even if you didn't get any of those, it was a lot easier back then to do a no-hit run, the floors were easier, the hardest boss was Mega Satan (who's kinda weak now compared to Ultra Greedier, Delirium, Mother and the Beast), you could take all devil deals, and some items were broken/unbalanced. Don't get me wrong, I like the new difficulty level and the fact that items have been balanced, I enjoy the difficulty, but Tainted Lost is just on another level. It took me less time to max out Lilith's and Tainted Lilith's post-it notes than to get a single thing done on Tainted Lost. Even the Keeper without any unlocks Pre-Repentance was better and more deserving of the "challenge" character slot. The idea that this is the new "challenge character" doesn’t excuse the lazy difficulty design that’s the core of the Tainted Lost’s character.

Super Meat Boy’s ultimate challenge was Cotton Alley, and that game actually did it right: each level had a gimmick that could be trained to overcome individually, it was pure skill, and there was nothing locked behind it besides achievements and bragging rights.

Meanwhile here, Tainted Lost faces random synergies/rooms/enemies that you can’t foresee, is heavily dependent on RNG to get a survivable synergy, and has plenty of items locked behind it forcing players who want the full Isaac experience to endure it, not just those seeking the hardcore experience. His main mechanic is called "better items" but seeing stuff like +10 bombs on the 3rd floor while I have no tears or damage item is just sad.

Another problem I have with Tainted Lost is that runs only go 2 ways: Instantaneous Death due to a stray bullet or projectile, causing a lot of frustration, or having an immensely overpowered run that sucks the fun out of everything as you just clear rooms without much of a keystroke, both of which are now heavily RNG reliant due to the lack of the ED6.

If the justification is “he’s the ultimate challenge character,” then it was pretty ♥♥♥♥ implementation. I legit cannot picture the developers actually making this character and getting to the Sheol or Cathedral without 50 losses, and actually having fun doing the run without it being RNG-carried. Literally the only hope from this hell hope is using Transcendence in real life.

[Valiant]

I’m just gonna say it, Tainted lost sucks so hard, it feels like they were trying to make a gimmick based off of OG lost, but in all honesty he just sucks. The “better items” he gets feels like something that the lost should already have, when keeper finds heart pick ups they turn into flys by the logic of tLost only tkeeper should have that passive ability. Not only that but tList losses a ton of items that are actually good for him. He can’t get any extra lives unless if you count his birthright which doesn’t make up for it. What really makes him annoying is his lack of any real gimmick. No, I refuse to accept “No holy mantel, better items” as a gimmick. In all honesty he doesn’t even really get “better items” and technically he doesn’t get like 1 holy mental, maybe 2 if you’re lucky. So in my opinion I just feel like he’s not really as flushed out as he should be.

Additional info, If I had my way here’s some ideas of how you could make a challenging character that follows lists gimmick and is still fun.

Tainted Lost would start with a one time holy mental, not a holy card. He would have a pocket active called eternity. If he still had his holy mental then using this item in a room with items present would cause it to reroll the item of the lowest quality into an item of 1 quality higher, but if he lost his holy mental then using it in a room with an item would consume the item with the highest quality causing him to regain his holy mental. Additionally I would keep the removal of items that do not benefit the lost but still allow extra life items to spawn and change his birth right effect and name. It’s name would change to 50/50, and the effect would cause a 50% chance of not devouring an item when regaining the holy mental and instead reroll it into an item of 1 quality lower, but if he has his holy manual then instead it has a 50% chance of rerolling it into an item of 2 qualities higher. Finally I would just prevent holy cards from spawning for this character, but that’s just me. I honestly just wish he had a better gimmick.

[Valiant]

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Tainted Lost was one of my least favorite characters to do the alt path with but he was one of my favorites to just ♥♥♥♥ around the game with.

I also agree with this, I just started on my second save file and I’m on tainted lost now. It’s not that I hay this character, but 100% him sucked the first time and it sucks this time to.

[kone]

Valiant eredeti hozzászólása:

I’m just gonna say it, Tainted lost sucks so hard, it feels like they were trying to make a gimmick based off of OG lost, but in all honesty he just sucks. The “better items” he gets feels like something that the lost should already have, when keeper finds heart pick ups they turn into flys by the logic of tLost only tkeeper should have that passive ability. Not only that but tList losses a ton of items that are actually good for him. He can’t get any extra lives unless if you count his birthright which doesn’t make up for it. What really makes him annoying is his lack of any real gimmick. No, I refuse to accept “No holy mantel, better items” as a gimmick. In all honesty he doesn’t even really get “better items” and technically he doesn’t get like 1 holy mental, maybe 2 if you’re lucky. So in my opinion I just feel like he’s not really as flushed out as he should be.

The gimmick is you only get 'offensive' items.
Lots of items removed means leaner item pools. Easier to find items that clear rooms faster.
Passive chance of rerolling quality 0-2 items along with the smaller item pools makes builds more consistently strong.
There's still 'defensive items' to look for that cushion mistakes, but that's not the purpose of the character. He's meant for you to get good. Adapt to enemies and rooms or die.
That was the point of the OG Lost, that's the purpose of this one too.

Your idea. You want a better The Lost.
A reroll in the consumable slot that boosts quality isn't very interesting. It's certainly incredibly, incredibly strong but that's it.
Removing health-based items (like The Lost's Birthright) but allowing revival items doesn't add intrigue or challenge to the character as much as did removing them.
Your idea makes him easier and less unique. Mostly easier.

Also necroing a nearly 3 year old thread?

[Tsumugi]

I'm stopping in to say that Tainted Lost only sucks because getting Holy Cards to drop is like winning the lottery. Get hit on Basement 1 accidentally? Better pray you can survive the next five floors minimum since you ain't getting another mantle until then, if at all.

Also gotta love "Better Items" while getting spit in the face with garbage like Free Lemonade and The Wiz. That's always fun.

[Man of Culture]

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm stopping in to say that Tainted Lost only sucks because getting Holy Cards to drop is like winning the lottery. Get hit on Basement 1 accidentally? Better pray you can survive the next five floors minimum since you ain't getting another mantle until then, if at all.

Also gotta love "Better Items" while getting spit in the face with garbage like Free Lemonade and The Wiz. That's always fun.

Those two items aren't bad they just don't have as diverse a synergy pool as others. If you get Lemonade it might not be something you heavily rely on for the long term but it's not useless. The Wiz is great if you have any kind of tear control items which are incredibly common to find. Like Eye of the Occult, Eye of Belial, Tech X, and Tractor Beam.

The only thing that sucks to get with T.Lost are things that have high self-damage rates because it requires you really adjust how you play.

[Tsumugi]

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm stopping in to say that Tainted Lost only sucks because getting Holy Cards to drop is like winning the lottery. Get hit on Basement 1 accidentally? Better pray you can survive the next five floors minimum since you ain't getting another mantle until then, if at all.

Also gotta love "Better Items" while getting spit in the face with garbage like Free Lemonade and The Wiz. That's always fun.

Those two items aren't bad they just don't have as diverse a synergy pool as others. If you get Lemonade it might not be something you heavily rely on for the long term but it's not useless. The Wiz is great if you have any kind of tear control items which are incredibly common to find. Like Eye of the Occult, Eye of Belial, Tech X, and Tractor Beam.

The only thing that sucks to get with T.Lost are things that have high self-damage rates because it requires you really adjust how you play.

I don't know about you, but when a character is literally advertised as getting "better items", the last thing I wanna see, are quality zeroes.

[Man of Culture]

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Those two items aren't bad they just don't have as diverse a synergy pool as others. If you get Lemonade it might not be something you heavily rely on for the long term but it's not useless. The Wiz is great if you have any kind of tear control items which are incredibly common to find. Like Eye of the Occult, Eye of Belial, Tech X, and Tractor Beam.

The only thing that sucks to get with T.Lost are things that have high self-damage rates because it requires you really adjust how you play.

I don't know about you, but when a character is literally advertised as getting "better items", the last thing I wanna see, are quality zeroes.

They're synergy items. Had to put low tier in the pool otherwise the items would be very stale and you've have nothing really interesting. Except lemonade. It's a one trick pony. But I'll fully support the wiz.

[Tsumugi]

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't know about you, but when a character is literally advertised as getting "better items", the last thing I wanna see, are quality zeroes.

They're synergy items. Had to put low tier in the pool otherwise the items would be very stale and you've have nothing really interesting. Except lemonade. It's a one trick pony. But I'll fully support the wiz.

Yeah well I won't. I prefer my tears to actually go in the direction I'm firing. Crazy concept, I know.

[Man of Culture]

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

They're synergy items. Had to put low tier in the pool otherwise the items would be very stale and you've have nothing really interesting. Except lemonade. It's a one trick pony. But I'll fully support the wiz.

Yeah well I won't. I prefer my tears to actually go in the direction I'm firing. Crazy concept, I know.

Hence the synergies I suggested lol. You'll figure it out. You're still sub 700 hours.

[Tsumugi]

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

Yeah well I won't. I prefer my tears to actually go in the direction I'm firing. Crazy concept, I know.

Hence the synergies I suggested lol. You'll figure it out. You're still sub 700 hours.

I already figured the game out, considering I got Dead God. The Wiz is just a garbage item, hence it's Quality Zero status. By extension, Tainted Lost sucks since his "better items" more often then not come down to "Hey, at least it's not a Health Up!" Honestly I'd rather take the literally useless Health Up over something that makes my tears have less accuracy than a Silver player trying to aim a rifle in Counter Strike.

[Man of Culture]

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Hence the synergies I suggested lol. You'll figure it out. You're still sub 700 hours.

I already figured the game out, considering I got Dead God. The Wiz is just a garbage item, hence it's Quality Zero status. By extension, Tainted Lost sucks since his "better items" more often then not come down to "Hey, at least it's not a Health Up!" Honestly I'd rather take the literally useless Health Up over something that makes my tears have less accuracy than a Silver player trying to aim a rifle in Counter Strike.

Ah, I see why you are the way you are now. Good day.

[orian34]

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

Ah, I see why you are the way you are now. Good day.

I like Wiz hat because it allows me to attack in diagonal, thus staying more safe from danger.

[Danizk0]

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

You'll figure it out. You're still sub 700 hours.

That's such an arbitrary statement lol, why 700 hours specifically? Because he already has 500?

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

Honestly I'd rather take the literally useless Health Up over something that makes my tears have less accuracy than a Silver player trying to aim a rifle in Counter Strike.

Your tears still have perfect accuracy, just shoot diagonally instead of straight ahead. They always come out in the same pattern, so it should take next to no effort for you to adapt. This complaint would be more fitting for Guillotine, an item that actually ♥♥♥♥♥ with your aim on a constant basis.

Wiz is a good item - it gives you spectral, an extra tear for more room coverage and even helps you avoid quite a few attacks and on-death effects. Plenty of synergies too.

[Man of Culture]

Danizk0 eredeti hozzászólása:

Man of Culture eredeti hozzászólása:

You'll figure it out. You're still sub 700 hours.

That's such an arbitrary statement lol, why 700 hours specifically? Because he already has 500?

Tsumugi eredeti hozzászólása:

Honestly I'd rather take the literally useless Health Up over something that makes my tears have less accuracy than a Silver player trying to aim a rifle in Counter Strike.

Your tears still have perfect accuracy, just shoot diagonally instead of straight ahead. They always come out in the same pattern, so it should take next to no effort for you to adapt. This complaint would be more fitting for Guillotine, an item that actually ♥♥♥♥♥ with your aim on a constant basis.

Wiz is a good item - it gives you spectral, an extra tear for more room coverage and even helps you avoid quite a few attacks and on-death effects. Plenty of synergies too.

No I was just being silly as I've had people on this forum tell me I didn't know anything because I only had 800 hours and not 1k hours. The reason I stopped engaging is because he already beat the game and that's just how he's going to see it with or without input from us. I explained already why Wiz is a good item with certain synergies, and they're easy-ish to get with T.Lost because his item pool is substantially reduced compared to others. You can run him 10 times in a row and you'll almost always see Wiz and Tractor Beam or any of the other Tear control items that completely negate the sideway shooting or turn you into a shotgun of death.

He clearly doesn't need or want advice.

[Nanami]

This thread was quite old before the recent post, so we're locking it to prevent confusion.