Do you even bother with devil deals now?

[Dutczar]

Devil deals were already getting worse in AB + due to worse items in the pool, but now after the balance changes there seems to be little reason to go for them unless you have 6 or more heart containers lying around, and even then that's only a "maybe" with nerfs to some items for soul heart generation, increased drops for red hearts (if I understood the patch notes correctly), or boss challenge rooms which are more accessible on red heart builds compared to soul heart ones (it's easier to have red hearts on the floor to recover afterwards) - running with only red health actually might be worth the risk of lower devil deal chances. At least before you could get some cheesy deals by buying 2 heart deals at 1, but not anymore. Abaddon has been nerfed, most black heart generation has been nerfed, and I've yet to get it but Brimstone too apparently, so I don't even know what I'm looking for besides something like Void (available in Angel deals too, lmao) or Mega Blast. Familiars have been buffed, cool, but I'm still not going to pay a heart container for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Sister Maggy.

You even get a boost to angel deal chances if you skip the first deal. Speaking of which, besides being as good (or bad) in item pools, angel deals give you the item for free and usually give you heart containers, again with the new meta seemingly focusing around them.

Also as a side note, not even a week and here we have a patch to buff tinted rock chances and shops back. I swear to god, nobody actually playtests these DLCs before release besides maybe loading up a boss and fighting it a few times. I'm surprised the actual new content is somewhat balanced.

Edit: I forgot Krampus and Curse of the Blind exist. These are worse than I thought.

[Sad Pug]

Worst thing they did to brimstone is shorter duration of it. Damage is little nerfed when it's "alone", but when you have damage items, you can still wreck the game.
Now, getting dmg items is whole other story.

Originally posted by Dutczar:

I swear to god, nobody actually playtests these DLCs before release besides maybe loading up a boss and fighting it a few times.

I agree. I mean, any teleport item/trinket/card/pill in mines will crash your game. I don't know how it could go unnoticed.

[Dantès]

Short answer: No, I don't even go to the shops anymore

[Marceloid]

Yeah I definitely do still go for devil deals, they still pack a punch, bringing a lot of flat damage upgrades to the table (Guppy's Head, Pact, Robes, Mark, Abaddon, etc.).

However, they aren't a no-brainer to take anymore since they come with greater risk, and are not as OP anymore (they can also drastically cut your health pool and life expectancy, many items have been nerfed)

my rule of thumb is, if i want the big damage against bosses without Boss-Armor, 2 red hearts + 2 soul hearts or 3 red hearts are safe enough for a floor 2 devil deal, otherwise try angel rooms.

If I want to get the true ending, where i need tons of HP & survivability, or i play characters that start with soul hearts (Azazel, ???), i usually go for angel deals, which have yet to fail me.

[jayhena]

it's not like mom's knife and brimstone are bad now, they are still stronger than most other tear changing items imo

[Backstabba]

Originally posted by Sad Pug:

Worst thing they did to brimstone is shorter duration of it. Damage is little nerfed when it's "alone", but when you have damage items, you can still wreck the game.
Now, getting dmg items is whole other story.

Originally posted by Dutczar:

I swear to god, nobody actually playtests these DLCs before release besides maybe loading up a boss and fighting it a few times.

I agree. I mean, any teleport item/trinket/card/pill in mines will crash your game. I don't know how it could go unnoticed.

The main issue with brimstone now is that because it lost so much damage its no longer worth spending 2 hearts on it.

Originally posted by Hairspray Queen:

Short answer: No, I don't even go to the shops anymore

If you have a lot of money(and I do mean a lot) you can just try to spend all of your money on the donation machine to try to get multiple luck ups/angel room chance ups from it.

[Violeta]

Not like I used too. Even in greed/greedier I'll often skip hitting the devil deal button

But with beth I do hit it. Because the higher odds of angel and how useful extra charges are.

[Amos]

I still do. I skip items a lot, but I'll generally try to get one anyway. If I get something good then it's great otherwise nothing is lost and I just insult Satan as I leave.

[Dutczar]

To clarify, I wanted a comparison between devil deals and angel rooms. Brimstone, Dark Bum, damage ups are all still good, but you have to get through a ton of dumb items to get them. Angel rooms can give you offensive items like Godhead, Sacred Heart, Holy shot or Trisagion AND the "bad" items are often decent defensive options like Holy Mantle or Wafer. And most importantly are free, so even a weak familiar is a nice bonus.

If Angel Rooms didn't exist, Devil Deals would still work as a "take it or leave it" that can sometimes help you, but as it stands Angel Rooms are just better.

Originally posted by Marceloid:

my rule of thumb is, if i want the big damage against bosses without Boss-Armor, 2 red hearts + 2 soul hearts or 3 red hearts are safe enough for a floor 2 devil deal, otherwise try angel rooms.

If I want to get the true ending, where i need tons of HP & survivability, or i play characters that start with soul hearts (Azazel, ???), i usually go for angel deals, which have yet to fail me. :meaty::reheart:

...case in point. IMO it's not even worth it if you only have 3 red hearts since you lose Angel Rooms for the rest of the run - at most, it's worth taking a Devil Deal late in the run when you have heart containers to spare and the item is actually good. At this point the only characters who seem to benefit consistently enough from Devil Deals are the Lost and the buffed Keeper. And even then, Angel Rooms still debatably have items that are just as good.

Originally posted by jayhena:

it's not like mom's knife and brimstone are bad now, they are still stronger than most other tear changing items imo

And again, Angel Rooms have Godhead and Sacred Heart. And personally I don't like Mom's Knife as you lose a lot of your room clearing power for a BIT more offensive power (compared to other meta items) on single targets, but to each their own.

[Firephoenixx456]

This, right here I think is a huge thrust of the outrage against the item rebalancing. The mechanics surrounding the devil deal were conceived of during an era in the game when there were broken and OP items. Now that at least the former is severely reduced. the current mechanics no longer make any sense. The whole point of a devil deal was high risk high reward now it's just high risk for nothing. If the devs are listening I say at least make it so no item is more than a single heart container or maybe make it so it costs a bit of health (like with the mausoleum) to get in and make all the devil items free.

[Shadowlet]

Unless it's a familiar I still pick up at least one Devil Deal almost all the time.

[Backstabba]

Originally posted by Shadowlet:

Unless it's a familiar I still pick up at least one Devil Deal almost all the time.

If you don't even enter the devil deal the next one is always replaced by an angel room which was an added mechanic.

[Shadowlet]

Originally posted by Backstabba:

Originally posted by Shadowlet:

Unless it's a familiar I still pick up at least one Devil Deal almost all the time.

If you don't even enter the devil deal the next one is always replaced by an angel room which was an added mechanic.

I haven't unlocked Lost's stuff yet so I don't go there.

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Sad Pug:

Worst thing they did to brimstone is shorter duration of it. Damage is little nerfed when it's "alone", but when you have damage items, you can still wreck the game.
Now, getting dmg items is whole other story.

Originally posted by Dutczar:

I swear to god, nobody actually playtests these DLCs before release besides maybe loading up a boss and fighting it a few times.

I agree. I mean, any teleport item/trinket/card/pill in mines will crash your game. I don't know how it could go unnoticed.

The DLC was tested from start to finish. I was one of the testers. This didn't happen to us. Even going to that floor and doing the exact same thing, it didn't happen. Some of these issues popped up quite literally right before release. ♥♥♥♥ happens in game development, they are actively working on fixing it. It's a tiny team and an enormous game with almost endless possibilities. Launches aren't usually perfect.

[Marceloid]

Hahaha, i can definitely see where you're coming from, with angel deals being just as powerful, while being risk-free, but bear with me here:

I want to add that, If i am pretty healthy on floor 2, i will ALWAYS try to go for a devil deal, the damage increase you can get from them is still just invaluable (really, every single item in there has the potential to increase your DPS, even Dead Cat -> Guppy c:) .

You might not get another deal up to FLIPPIN' FLOOR 5 (guaranteed Angel room or 50/50), which is a huge risk factor in practice, especially with the stronger enemies or alt chapters.

Your third, and maybe even second deal, if you manage to get it, is not even guaranteed to be an angel room, so you're basically stuck with damage in exchange for Health.

But, and probably the thing you want to hear, if i'd get Duality from my first devil deal, i would always go inside the angel room, they are pretty viable now, aswell. ;)

[Pastapockets]

Edmund has hated Devil Deals ever since the very first major Isaac speedrun event stream, where most participants just reset until they got goat head. Every weird change to the game's balance has been a symptom of his impotent rage against this. Ironic that a guy who professed to literally never expecting the game to catch on would be the most elitist about how to play it.