Gender confusion in Shovel Knight.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Obviously Shield Knight and the main character are in a romantic relationship. I know there is an in-game reference to Shield Knight being female (although everything else about the character appears boy-ish and male - specifically the face avatar). Is there any reference to the gender of the Shovel Knight?

What intrigued me is that someone was once telling me a story of 'shield boys' that were assistants for warriors (the pair was specific and they acted as a team in battle), where there was often sexual relationships as well. My head was making all kinds of weird (potential) connections about this game having a homosexual couple as the main characters.

Does anybody have any insight?

Thanks in advance,

[󠀡󠀡aynhse]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lawrance Cohen:

I hate how people have to dig so deep into every little thing in a game now a days. Why does it matter? Would you not be able to enjoy the game if it turned out Shovel Knight was a man and Shield Night was girl canonically? Who cares?

It's because, we want to know if are fish called shovel knight is a mermaid or merman. IT MATTERS DANG IT!

(also, the reason why I called it a fish is because it's the only thing that makes sense as to how the person can remain underwater without drowning, yes there is a race of fish people in this game)

[Lindar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lawrance Cohen:

I hate how people have to dig so deep into every little thing in a game now a days. Why does it matter? Would you not be able to enjoy the game if it turned out Shovel Knight was a man and Shield Night was girl canonically? Who cares?

I'm sure I'd enjoy it just fine regardless, but I personally would enjoy it *more* if I could relate more strongly to the character. It's no different from relating more to a character of a same or similar ethnicity or cultural background, really. I don't *need* a female lead or a male support, but I'd relate more strongly to that than if it were the other way around, and thus I'd enjoy it slightly more than I otherwise would.

[Ryan Dorkoski]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lawrance Cohen:

I hate how people have to dig so deep into every little thing in a game now a days. Why does it matter? Would you not be able to enjoy the game if it turned out Shovel Knight was a man and Shield Knight was a woman canonically? Who cares?

Its not really digging that deep now is it? Just trying to find out the basic characteristics of the main characters in the story.

[Doity Boid]

Sorry to debunk the theory you seemed to be enjoying, but the game does in fact specify gender. During some of the little interludes between levels, where shovel knight is taking a nap, Shield Knight falls from the sky accompanied by a prompt such as "CATCH HER!" or "SAVE HER!" depending on the mini-game task involved.

But hey, if its that big of a deal, you can still fantasize that maybe Shield Knight is transgender, and prefers to be called "her"-- hmm, but then that doesn't technically count as "homosexuality" does it...

Oh whatever. It's a chick, sorry.

[󠀡󠀡aynhse]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Orpheusftw:

Sorry to debunk the theory you seemed to be enjoying, but the game does in fact specify gender. During some of the little interludes between levels, where shovel knight is taking a nap, Shield Knight falls from the sky accompanied by a prompt such as "CATCH HER!" or "SAVE HER!" depending on the mini-game task involved.

But hey, if its that big of a deal, you can still fantasize that maybe Shield Knight is transgender, and prefers to be called "her"-- hmm, but then that doesn't technically count as "homosexuality" does it...

Oh whatever. It's a chick, sorry. :trolol:

We are talking about Shovel Knight, not Shield Knight

[Majora]

It doesn't matter like how Samus is a women, it just doesn't matter at all. I would be pissed however if they made a new metroid game and retcon samus as a man, I hate when they ruin established characters,

We will see if shovel knight is a man or not in gender swap, if he becomes a she in gender swap then we will know that he was a he from the get go.

I hope in gender swap mode we can have the helmet off to see the face of that version of shovel knight, would love it.

[Citronvand]

Of course Shovel Knight is a man, what would be the purpose of a gender swap if both are female? Yes, more character are getting swapped as well but I seriously doubt they're not going to swap the 2 main characters.

Also, a few females in the game hit on Shovel Knight but I can't remember a single guy doing it.

[Doity Boid]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 1mirg:

We are talking about Shovel Knight, not Shield Knight

Just because I can't let anybody have any fun at all-- http://i.imgur.com/2WarLzy.jpg?1

[YinYin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Orpheusftw:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 1mirg:

We are talking about Shovel Knight, not Shield Knight

Just because I can't let anybody have any fun at all-- http://i.imgur.com/2WarLzy.jpg?1

That horse is making assumptions doh. Can't see through that armor. :p

[Shadowspaz]

Responding to lindarthebard's original comment about "straight character couples by default," I think it's much less about player stereotypes and sexuality, and much more about classic storytelling archetypes.

Going back to the classic "knight in shining armor saving the princess from the dragon" concept, you can see it repeat through the vast majority of entertainment mediums throughout time, commonly referred to as 'the hero's journey.' In games, you have your Marios and your Links out to rescue their princesses, you have a variety of Grimm fairy tales following it (Rapunzel and Snow White, among many, many others), and you have the original Star Wars and Princess Bride movies.

It's a very, very classic story. And with Shovel Knight being a dedicated throwback to the classics, it's perfectly understandable that they stick very close to the original archetypes- In this case, that's pretty much hero, villain, and the damsel in distress. Although the end twists that around a bit, but this still fits in to the 'Fallen Hero'[tvtropes.org] trope.

This game isn't trying to make any point, or hold any stance on gender equality or homosexual rights. It's entertainment for entertainment's sake, and I feel like it would get pretty bland if they attempted to conform to political correctness. This is, at its heart, a classic romance story.

The Gender Swap mode may be connected to some gender equality views, but that's really all speculation and I don't really want to try forcing these topics into this game. I'd have no issues playing as a man rescuing his homosexual lover in a different, more modernized game, because they can work that relationship into the heart of the game. But Shovel Knight is a "knight saves princess" story, and that's all it needs to be. It's complete, and shoehorning in any stances on any external topics would really water down the simple beauty it has.

That's what I found to be odd about Rogue Legacy- 'Gay' has no reason to be there, other than for the developers to blatantly say that they support gay rights. It has no impact on the game, and yes, that's the point. But you don't see 'straight' there. There's never any romantic context at any point in the game, so it's never worth noting. I don't care what they're sexual orientation is- I'm just there to kill crap.

[YinYin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shadowspaz:

But Shovel Knight is a "knight saves princess" story, and that's all it needs to be.

It may be simple but it's not that. At all. There is no princess, only a bunch of knights, and the person to be 'rescued' is a much more powerful character than your average princess. This is already very well done.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shadowspaz:

That's what I found to be odd about Rogue Legacy- 'Gay' has no reason to be there, other than for the developers to blatantly say that they support gay rights. It has no impact on the game, and yes, that's the point. But you don't see 'straight' there. There's never any romantic context at any point in the game, so it's never worth noting. I don't care what they're sexual orientation is- I'm just there to kill crap.

Exactly. In the very same way straight relationships usually have no reason to be included. The sexual relations too often don't add to or change stories at all. They are just habitually included without much thought. That's our society right there. I guess some would just feel much more comfy if any kind of relation was habitually used in stories instead of almost always the same or trying too hard with all kinds of extra reasoning and political statements.

Nobody calls for 'shoehorned' character relations. These are always horrible. It should seem natural without putting focus on it in any case. And that's what works here imo.

[Shadowspaz]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von YinYin:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shadowspaz:

But Shovel Knight is a "knight saves princess" story, and that's all it needs to be.

It may be simple but it's not that. At all. There is no princess, only a bunch of knights, and the person to be 'rescued' is a much more powerful character than your average princess. This is already very well done.

It's very much that. You start the game after Shield Knight is enslaved by the Enchantress' magic. You quest to the Tower of Fate to free her. In the dream sequences, it even says "Save her." No, she isn't a princess, but she is very much the damsel in distress- Locked away, powerless to help herself, waiting for rescue. And yes, she turns out to be decently powerful, but the entire point of the game was still to free her. Saying "knight saves princess" is just referencing the archetypes used- Not actually claiming that she is, in fact, a princess.

[YinYin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shadowspaz:

It's very much that. You start the game after Shield Knight is enslaved by the Enchantress' magic. You quest to the Tower of Fate to free her. In the dream sequences, it even says "Save her." No, she isn't a princess, but she is very much the damsel in distress- Locked away, powerless to help herself, waiting for rescue. And yes, she turns out to be decently powerful, but the entire point of the game was still to free her. Saying "knight saves princess" is just referencing the archetypes used- Not actually claiming that she is, in fact, a princess.

Interpretation I guess. I won't deny it starts out as that. But I would argue that she herself (under the spell) and most of the Order (Polar Knight in particular) seemed happy with their power (and included change of character). So to me she never is a damsel in distress even though we assume her to be as we only get the news rather late (opposed to Shovel Knight being aware of it from the very beginning). The dreams to me are just nightmares, foreboding the events.

Anyway if this is all the same to you then there is also no distinction between straight by default and using storytelling archetypes:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shadowspaz:

Responding to lindarthebard's original comment about "straight character couples by default," I think it's much less about player stereotypes and sexuality, and much more about classic storytelling archetypes.

The result is the same and we can break free from century long archetypes. Using them is not justifieable simply with their existence.

[Shadowspaz]

They're justified because this is a throwback to classic gaming, where archetypes were vastly more prominent. Look at the progression Zelda has made- It literally started out as "save the princess." And now, that "princess" often ends up helping Link save the world. But it's that starting point that Shovel Knight alludes to, so I find it perfectly acceptable to follow.

[Kartoffelsuppe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Citronvand:

Of course Shovel Knight is a man, what would be the purpose of a gender swap if both are female? Yes, more character are getting swapped as well but I seriously doubt they're not going to swap the 2 main characters.

Also, a few females in the game hit on Shovel Knight but I can't remember a single guy doing it.

About time someone said that, I thought I was the only one that read the various bypassing npc's in town.

About that gay thing, I guess the reason they didn't make it like that is because they wanted to reach more people. I assume that gay people are a minority & that is probably also the reason why you don't see this so much in videogames, it probably takes a gay developer to actually have a real desire to include this in a videogame.