The Bioware Effect (AKA, Why Give Us Choices?)

[What The Egad]

I've played through Episode 2 a couple of times in order to experiment with story outcomes for this game as it advertises that its outcome is tailored to the choices I make. I suppose it is true, if taken literally, but as of this episode I'm lowering my expectation quite considerably in relation to what the extent of the differences are.

[SPOILERS]

There are no puzzles to solve in this game, or if there are the plot itself will soon resolve them for you as the series continues. All that's left for you is to fill in the details based on your choice-making. Ultimately, getting from one place to the next becomes more of a chore rather than an intriguing look into what amounts to a "different" playthough depending on the different choices you make along the way. Dialogue changes as to disposition, but seeing as how you get from point A to point B no matter what you in this game, it seems the moral of this fable is that the ends will always justify the means. The entire plot is tailored that way, so choosing violence over amnesty when trying to find out this and that from whoever you chose to capture at the Trip Trap Bar doesn't matter as far as the progression of events go. I call this the "Bioware Effect" as many Bioware games would also give you the illusion that somehow the choices you made actually mattered. In truth, it seems that going Paragon or Renegade with Bigby Wolf is merely the icing on the cake. Continuing to borrow from that metaphor, I'm being given the choice of flavoring my icing while the cake itself remains whatever has already been prepared by those who originally prepared it.

To be fair, the only real variety in choice-making comes in who you decide to capture at the end of Episode 1. However, you get Woody or Dee to spill the beans regardless of whether or not you choose violence or amnesty. So what is the point to choosing either one?

Fighting with Beast in Episode 2 would seem like a natural current of events if you lie to him for Beauty or treat him like a jerk in the elevator. However, having beast fight you after telling him the truth seems forced and calls into question whether or not telling the truth, lying, or simply staying out of it mattered at all in the first place if this fight was going to occur regardless of what you did.

I'll be honest in saying that I have not played through and discovered what happens if you don't take Snow along with you to the Trip Trap, although I'm fairly sure the outcome will be the same thing--Bigby will eventually be lead to the Puddin' and Pie and confront Georgie. am I right? Whether or not I am, I don't really care and I don't want to go through the chapter all over again just to find out.

Does anyone remember the game The Laura Bow: The Dagger of Amon Ra? It was a game that required actual detective work on the part of the player--the game was not keen on telling you where to look or leading you through what to do for the most part. Although the game is old by the standards of The Wolf Among Us, there were more puzzles and a lot more inventory and environment interaction. Sometimes, your character would die of making a wrong choice or movement concerning the environment.

I mention this game only because, in the game the identity of the murderer was not simply revealed to the player the end of the game. Instead, the player would asked a series of a questions in order to see how much attention the player paid to the ongoing events and pieced them together (including looking at evidence and talking to other characters). The game's end would be tailored to how well you answered those questions.

The Wolf Among Us is taking that entire situation and moving it backwards and the end of Episode 2 illustrates that point very well. Beauty basically answers all our questions for us, insultingly so I might add as only a complete idiot wouldn't be able to piece the evidence together based on the clues that are ever-so conveniently highlighted for us. Bigby even skeptically thanks Beauty for calling him such a great detective.

Everything in the crime scene matches the details in this book we found at the crime scene which means all the crimes he committed were done according the details in this book we found at the crime scene! Gee, what great work you do, Sheriff!

[END SPOILERS]

[What The Egad]

Escrito originalmente por BeastBox:

Escrito originalmente por Red Potassium:

In other words, you think they made a game where they've taken the time and effort to construct a choice-based method of stroytelling while not having the type of budget necessary to actually have any of those choices lead to anything other than a single definitive outcome?

Well that's what's been happening so far, is it not?

It's not necessarily budget-related, though.

[BeastBox]

Escrito originalmente por Red Potassium:

Escrito originalmente por BeastBox:

Well that's what's been happening so far, is it not?

It's not necessarily budget-related, though.

If you like.

[mrbenz19]

Wow, after this long conversation this discussion doesn't seems to going anywhere :/

Please note that budget is also needed for the code (aka programming), planning, design (game design, not art), and also Testing aka Quality assurance. Budget is not limited to the thing that player can see, but it also used for everything behind a game. The people who do the programming, the planning, the story, and the testing need to eat. Basically, Telltale need to pay these people and that, my friend, is also included in the budget.

Adding branching story line and different outcome will cost time. While I'm not sure how difficult it is to do it with their engine, it is obviously will take longer time to finish, which in the end resulted in more money needed. Remember, "Time is money", and it's true in almost any industry. So, the longer the production time, higher budget is needed.

I don't know how much budget do they have and how much it is cost to add different outcomes. And I don't really care about budget, frankly. I care more about presentation.

TL;DR - Budget is covering a lot of things other than visual.

[Kieran]

Escrito originalmente por mrbenz:

I don't know how much budget do they have and how much it is cost to add different outcomes.

Truth is none of us does. Doesn't stop people from being experts of course. ;-)

[Law Abiding Engineer]

It reminds me of some picture for either Mass Effect or Dead Space, in which it showed the picture of a path that split into two pathes. One said it was bad, the other said it was good. However, regardless of what path you picked, the two pathes merged back together shortly after choosing one. I fully agree with you OP about this. The ending for episode 2 was so painful in how they made it "master of the obvious" with explaining things. Even the interogation scene was cringeworthy. I would have liked it if being soft with Dee gave you some info while making him realize that he could get away from you being too oft. Maybe have it where you have to be soft, harsh, and then soft again to get max info, and harsh, soft, harsh would get no info.


The game is interesting and I love the story but it feels so "hand being held the whole way" type. Ah well, still good story.

[What The Egad]

Escrito originalmente por Law Abiding Engineer:

It reminds me of some picture for either Mass Effect or Dead Space, in which it showed the picture of a path that split into two pathes. One said it was bad, the other said it was good. However, regardless of what path you picked, the two pathes merged back together shortly after choosing one. I fully agree with you OP about this. The ending for episode 2 was so painful in how they made it "master of the obvious" with explaining things. Even the interogation scene was cringeworthy. I would have liked it if being soft with Dee gave you some info while making him realize that he could get away from you being too oft. Maybe have it where you have to be soft, harsh, and then soft again to get max info, and harsh, soft, harsh would get no info.


The game is interesting and I love the story but it feels so "hand being held the whole way" type. Ah well, still good story.

Actually, even that! The interrogation scene has no predications on any amount of intellectual methodology--just in how thuggish or nice you want to be. It's all about emotion and not about actually trying to put two and two together. I mean, how would Bigby even have known that either of them were telling a lie in the heat of the moment of being tortured/comforted?

He wouldn't!

You don't use any past clues or interactions to help you in the interrogation. Bigby has no opportunity to be clever or outsmart the interrogatee--it's either give them a smoke or burn them. Likewise, the prisoner makes no effort to try anything smart either--they're preset to give their answers to Bigby regardless of which order you perform your interrogation or which method.

It would seem to me that Woodsman, being somewhat reclusive, might actually recoil into himself and respond with anything had he been tortured. The only time he was every really willing to fight was when he had his axe and/or while his judgement was impaired by drinking. Wouldn't it have been more dynamic in developing characters and having the player actually consider his/her actions if, by torturing Woodsman and actually being lead nowhere other than causing him to spout off anything just to get the hell out of there.

On the other side of the coin, Dee's first encounter demonstrated that he was more than willing to lie about who he was working for and what he was doing in Prince Lawrence's room. Showing amnesty to him would seem like the last thing I would do (plus, he and his brother whacked you before, right?) Wouldn't punching him around be more appropriate than being nice to him?

No, there's nothing to figure out about the interrogation--nothing to use in your favor, but nothing to lose regardless of what you choose.

[Law Abiding Engineer]

I have a question about effects. When in the strip club, does taking the money in the safe have any effect, like anyone see it, or does it just add to your current money total? Also, I didn't break a single thing in the club, but I wonder if breaking everything would do anything

[What The Egad]

Escrito originalmente por Law Abiding Engineer:

I have a question about effects. When in the strip club, does taking the money in the safe have any effect, like anyone see it, or does it just add to your current money total? Also, I didn't break a single thing in the club, but I wonder if breaking everything would do anything

I've tried both ways. I've wrecked the entire establishment once and another time I've left it entirely unscathed. Georgie gives you the key to the safe either way. I stold the money from him one playthrough, and he didn't even seem to notice. The only impact that had on the playthrough was that I could entirely pay Nerissa off. However, did you know that she'll give you the key regardless of what you do? I completely denied her, continually saying, "No, I won't make an appointment with you."

Want to know what she did? She still talked with Georgie and she still gave me the key! So what was the point of giving us the option of paying her off if she was just going to do it anyway?!

[boxman]

Escrito originalmente por himmatsj:

Ever since TWDS1, I already said one thing to everyone I knew: The choices are superficial.

But still, in TWD1, the superficial choices impact dialogues quite notably, the way characters treat/react to you and the progress of the story's sub-archs. Right at the beginning, you get to choose to go out in the day or night with different sub-arc outcomes. Also, saving Carley or Doug, where the survivor stays with you for a bit.

In TWAU though, there's nothing like that even. It's a step backwards. Best example is the Beast thing. Also, ripping Gren's arm or not results in exactly the same remark from the Woodsman.

Yeah exactly. Even though choices in TWD had no major impact at the end it at least changed the way characters interacted with you which to me added alot to the game.
In this episode even some of the character responses to a dialogue choice even lead to a reply that made absolutely no sense.
I really hope this is just due to the issues they had with episode 2 and that next episodes will have more actual interactivity.

[mushy]

Escrito originalmente por boxman:

Escrito originalmente por himmatsj:

Ever since TWDS1, I already said one thing to everyone I knew: The choices are superficial.

But still, in TWD1, the superficial choices impact dialogues quite notably, the way characters treat/react to you and the progress of the story's sub-archs. Right at the beginning, you get to choose to go out in the day or night with different sub-arc outcomes. Also, saving Carley or Doug, where the survivor stays with you for a bit.

In TWAU though, there's nothing like that even. It's a step backwards. Best example is the Beast thing. Also, ripping Gren's arm or not results in exactly the same remark from the Woodsman.

Yeah exactly. Even though choices in TWD had no major impact at the end it at least changed the way characters interacted with you which to me added alot to the game.
In this episode even some of the character responses to a dialogue choice even lead to a reply that made absolutely no sense.
I really hope this is just due to the issues they had with episode 2 and that next episodes will have more actual interactivity.

This is exactly right. A step backwards from TWD. Which this is essentially a modified/tailored engine of, I wonder WHY. There must of been a huge problem somewhere internally for this to be so late, and lack any options. Perhaps they had more liberties in TWD since people from the comic/show were quickly gone, and Kirkman was involved. It could be that the creators of this comic are not giving them any room to explore the script in other ways? Who the hell knows, but you can go through the game clicking ... and get the same results so eh. If it keeps up with TWD S2E2 I am going to be less supportive of this company, and just buy Game of Thrones when it is complete, and on sale. It was okay for TWDS1 it was their first real go at this type of story telling, it could only get better right? Yet they regress?!

[The Epitaph]

Escrito originalmente por mushy:

Escrito originalmente por boxman:

Yeah exactly. Even though choices in TWD had no major impact at the end it at least changed the way characters interacted with you which to me added alot to the game.
In this episode even some of the character responses to a dialogue choice even lead to a reply that made absolutely no sense.
I really hope this is just due to the issues they had with episode 2 and that next episodes will have more actual interactivity.

This is exactly right. A step backwards from TWD. Which this is essentially a modified/tailored engine of, I wonder WHY. There must of been a huge problem somewhere internally for this to be so late, and lack any options. Perhaps they had more liberties in TWD since people from the comic/show were quickly gone, and Kirkman was involved. It could be that the creators of this comic are not giving them any room to explore the script in other ways? Who the hell knows, but you can go through the game clicking ... and get the same results so eh. If it keeps up with TWD S2E2 I am going to be less supportive of this company, and just buy Game of Thrones when it is complete, and on sale. It was okay for TWDS1 it was their first real go at this type of story telling, it could only get better right? Yet they regress?!

Well, it wasn't exactly their first try at that kind of episodic adventure game ;).
But I'd agree, I mentioned on several occasions that it was a mistake to make a prequel to the comics, which instantly limits them in a very restrictive way, unlike they did with TWD.
Writeing a whole new story and expanding on a univers with new characters is something vaslty different from tailoring a plotline to be d'accord with an allready existing one, with also staying true to the allready established characters.

Also, the amount of new work they put on their plate isn't really helping them, imo. Boderlands, GoTs, two additional series ontop of allready wo existing ones. The last time they had so many series in the same periode the series ranged from outright insulting to average-entertainment.
Let's hope they learned from their past :/

[Cpt Suspeito]

Escrito originalmente por Red Potassium:

I've played through Episode 2 a couple of times in order to experiment with story outcomes for this game as it advertises that its outcome is tailored to the choices I make. I suppose it is true, if taken literally, but as of this episode I'm lowering my expectation quite considerably in relation to what the extent of the differences are.

[SPOILERS]

There are no puzzles to solve in this game, or if there are the plot itself will soon resolve them for you as the series continues. All that's left for you is to fill in the details based on your choice-making. Ultimately, getting from one place to the next becomes more of a chore rather than an intriguing look into what amounts to a "different" playthough depending on the different choices you make along the way. Dialogue changes as to disposition, but seeing as how you get from point A to point B no matter what you in this game, it seems the moral of this fable is that the ends will always justify the means. The entire plot is tailored that way, so choosing violence over amnesty when trying to find out this and that from whoever you chose to capture at the Trip Trap Bar doesn't matter as far as the progression of events go. I call this the "Bioware Effect" as many Bioware games would also give you the illusion that somehow the choices you made actually mattered. In truth, it seems that going Paragon or Renegade with Bigby Wolf is merely the icing on the cake. Continuing to borrow from that metaphor, I'm being given the choice of flavoring my icing while the cake itself remains whatever has already been prepared by those who originally prepared it.

To be fair, the only real variety in choice-making comes in who you decide to capture at the end of Episode 1. However, you get Woody or Dee to spill the beans regardless of whether or not you choose violence or amnesty. So what is the point to choosing either one?

Fighting with Beast in Episode 2 would seem like a natural current of events if you lie to him for Beauty or treat him like a jerk in the elevator. However, having beast fight you after telling him the truth seems forced and calls into question whether or not telling the truth, lying, or simply staying out of it mattered at all in the first place if this fight was going to occur regardless of what you did.

I'll be honest in saying that I have not played through and discovered what happens if you don't take Snow along with you to the Trip Trap, although I'm fairly sure the outcome will be the same thing--Bigby will eventually be lead to the Puddin' and Pie and confront Georgie. am I right? Whether or not I am, I don't really care and I don't want to go through the chapter all over again just to find out.

Does anyone remember the game The Laura Bow: The Dagger of Amon Ra? It was a game that required actual detective work on the part of the player--the game was not keen on telling you where to look or leading you through what to do for the most part. Although the game is old by the standards of The Wolf Among Us, there were more puzzles and a lot more inventory and environment interaction. Sometimes, your character would die of making a wrong choice or movement concerning the environment.

I mention this game only because, in the game the identity of the murderer was not simply revealed to the player the end of the game. Instead, the player would asked a series of a questions in order to see how much attention the player paid to the ongoing events and pieced them together (including looking at evidence and talking to other characters). The game's end would be tailored to how well you answered those questions.

The Wolf Among Us is taking that entire situation and moving it backwards and the end of Episode 2 illustrates that point very well. Beauty basically answers all our questions for us, insultingly so I might add as only a complete idiot wouldn't be able to piece the evidence together based on the clues that are ever-so conveniently highlighted for us. Bigby even skeptically thanks Beauty for calling him such a great detective.

Everything in the crime scene matches the details in this book we found at the crime scene which means all the crimes he committed were done according the details in this book we found at the crime scene! Gee, what great work you do, Sheriff!

[END SPOILERS]

First of all, it's only the Second Episode of a serie of 5, things will unfold based on your choices probably on chapter 3 as it did in the walking dead series that took their time to put my choices in effect.

Second, have you ever seen any kind of puzzle in the walking dead series? NO! so why in the hell would they put it in The wolf among us and completely uncaracterize all the series so far?

Third, the book you find is about the tales but with a mundy's versions of them, the snow white tale was on the middle of the book, so no, there is no point in taking the book and trying to figure it out if you don't have a pattern to what was going on since there is a lot if tales in that book, i worked as an investigator for some time, so i know what i'm talking about.

And Fourth, this is not a The Laura Bow: The Dagger of Amon Ra investigation game, this is a telltale and not an investigation game budy, it follows the exact formula of the walking dead but with fables, this is a story telling game with bits of investigation in it.

"only a complete idiot wouldn't be able to piece the evidence together based on the clues that are ever-so conveniently highlighted for us." there was no way for him to find the killer without the pictures, she just says that hes a good detective cuz he figured that the murderer made fake snow white play her role as snow white nothing else -_-'

"So what is the point to choosing either one?" maybe to decide wich kind of personality you want to have? man you need to really think of what you're talking about, telltale games where all about choices (no matter how insignificant), and personality build up.

[Cpt Suspeito]

People forget that this is not The Walking Dead, this is The Wolf Among Us, want to know the diference?

The Walking Dead: a world without any kind of rules, that if you want to take a sh1t in the road you can, where you actually conveniently control a character that finds a team ready to command, and in a game that takes place AFTER the events of walking dead, this for me sounds like the "easy button" formula.

The Wolf Among Us: a world full of restricting rules, that if you want to take a sh1t you must go all the way back to your apartment, you control the sheriff that is a lone wolf and has to give example and depending on your choices, people will fear you or think you're "okay", and in this game they wanted a chalenge, they put the story line before the events of the comic, wich is really a blur on how it came to be and now with this we will know.

So now let me ask a thing for people who are complaining about it for having less choices tham the walking dead, could you make a game that is bound to connect with a certain time line have more choices and consequences for being a prequel than a game that has all the freedom in the world because it has the privilege of being a sequel?

This game in my eyes are faring at a rate of success close to the walking dead cuz of it's good story telling and it inteligent plot that is the contrary of the walking dead that you could do whatever you wanted, and if The Wolf Among Us continue that way, it's probably going to be more or equally interesting and loved as The walking dead.

[[NGNS-SWE] ⚡ Quezkatolen ⚡]

I understand the critic but I also find it laughable that people expect that just because you lied to a friend you known for 100+ years like beauty and beast, suddenly they should hate you or never trust you again.

Sometimes the game can have (... and should) actions and options that leads nowhere diffrent.
Yes, if I tell a lie or break a thing at someones property it shouldnt mean that person X now must hate me and never wanna talk with me.

Same with the Grendel arm thing, how about letting the player create a more understanding and calmer bigby or a more aggressive sheriff who doesnt accept any BS in his town. Without huge consquences that then change the storyline in major ways.

[Cpt Suspeito]

Escrito originalmente por QuezcatoL! (SWE):

I understand the critic but I also find it laughable that people expect that just because you lied to a friend you known for 100+ years like beauty and beast, suddenly they should hate you or never trust you again.

Sometimes the game can have (... and should) actions and options that leads nowhere diffrent.
Yes, if I tell a lie or break a thing at someones property it shouldnt mean that person X now must hate me and never wanna talk with me.

Same with the Grendel arm thing, how about letting the player create a more understanding and calmer bigby or a more aggressive sheriff who doesnt accept any BS in his town. Without huge consquences that then change the storyline in major ways.

i agree, people lose some much of their time complaining about things in TWAU that they forget that there was a lot of "no matter what" kind of choices in TWD that is a by far more open ended tham TWAU, giving an example, no matter what choices you make you can never save the one character that was more interesting in the series, Carley, or even the guy from the fence budy, even if you choose to save him first he don't make it.