Has anyone read EULA? (Resolved: The EULA is gone.)

[grymwynd]

"If you connect to the Internet when using the Software, either through a gaming platform network, or any other method, Licensor may receive information from hardware manufacturers or gaming platform hosts and may automatically collect certain information from your computer or gaming unit. This information may include, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, user IDs (such as gamer tags and screen names), game scores, game achievements, game performance, locations visited, buddylists, hardware MAC address, internet protocol address, and your usage of various game features. All information collected by Licensor is intended to be anonymous information that does not disclose your identity or constitute personal information, however, if you include personal information (such as your real name) in your user ID, then such personal information will automatically be transmitted to Licensor and used as described herein. The information collected by Licensor may be posted by Licensor on publicly-accessible web sites, shared with hardware manufacturers, shared with platform hosts, SHARED WITH LICENCOR'S MARKETING PARTNERS or used by Licensor for any other lawful purpose. By using this Software you consent to the Licensor’s use of related data, including public display of your data such as identification of your user created content or displaying your scores, ranking, achievements and other gameplay data. If you do not want your information shared in this manner, then you should not use the Software."

While I understand some of these permissions are necessary to have live leaderboards it does occur to me that software that does just this is usually classed as spyware or malware.
I have put the 2 pieces of text i found most objectionable in capitals.
What does anyone else think?

[T@F]

Damn i was about to buy this game lucky i checked here.

I do belive the dev when he says they don't collect info,my prob lies is they can if they wanted to because of the wrong eula and could if they wanted to,sell our data on.
As many devs companys cannot be trusted nowadays i shall give this game a miss untill eula changes.
Shame because the game does kinda look ok.

[DAOWAce]

grymwynd님이 먼저 게시:

"user IDs ... buddylists ... internet protocol address,
All information collected is anonymous that does not disclose your identity or constitute personal information,

ForeverEntertainment님이 먼저 게시:

We used a standard Steam EULA.

Last I checked, user IDs and IP addresses are NOT anonymous and wholly disclose your identity. Friends lists are also completely personal.

If this is Steam's 'standard' EULA, then either no one's been reading it or no one wants to get this to court. Then again, Steam did change their ToS so you can't bring them to court (on a class-action level), didn't they? If you want dishonesty, then look no further than Valve themselves.

[ShinsFortress]

They are not lawyers, but they can read. No excuse. Not buying. Literally.

[Timeraider]

Well.. there is something that 95% of games have in their contractual agreement without people knowing.. and now they suddenly spot it. Congatz people.. only 90% of the games on your steamaccount are allowed to do exactly the same..

[LadySky89]

A_Squirrel님이 먼저 게시:

ForeverEntertainment님이 먼저 게시:

As I told you we are devs and we do not have a huge team of lawyers hired [...] We took same standard EULA and changed the name of the company. I think that I have the best authority to say that we are not collecting any data and sharing it with any partners, [...] Remember that having the permission ≠ using it.

So, if I got it right that you´re the guy in charge here, please take care of the following steps:

• Bi*chslap your current lawyers.
  
• Hire competent ones.
  
• Remove the offending/unnecessary parts of your EULA.

I couldn't agree more.
This practice is getting to be too much common lately.
And it's not a matter of having something to hide, like Areso said, even a small detail of your personality could be compromosing nowadays.
And this is as true as it's true that Facebook ruined many people, that got kicked off their job or received harassement, due to leak of personal likes and infos from their account/profiles.

We're people, NOT TOYS.

Now.. Dangerous or not, I'm not buying until this EULA is changed.. I'm just tired myself of seeing these things and of not being free to put whatever I like into my devices.
And too bad, because this game is even wishlisted, thanks to the friend that pointed me this out, it will stay there for a while.

[Metro]

Hilarious people are throwing a fit over this -- you all use Steam. This game isn't anymore intrusive in terms of collecting information that the DRM platform you're already using. Anyone sold more than 200 cards/items on the marketplace and given Steam your SSN? Doesn't get more intrusive than that.

[onitake]

Metro님이 먼저 게시:

Anyone sold more than 200 cards/items on the marketplace and given Steam your SSN? Doesn't get more intrusive than that.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would Valve collect social security numbers? Did someone actually give them theirs?

On another note, people should stop dismissing the discussion because "it doesn't matter anyway" or beacause "we expose much more intrusive data in other places". The developer clearly made a mistake when they posted a "standard EULA", they even acknowledged they didn't think much of it because "they're not lawyers", yet they blatantly refuse to remedy the situation and be open and straightforward with their customers. Now that the game is released, it really shouldn't be too much to ask for a rewritten license agreement that is appropriate for the game. Thank you very much.

[RiO]

DAOWAce님이 먼저 게시:

grymwynd님이 먼저 게시:

"user IDs ... buddylists ... internet protocol address,
All information collected is anonymous that does not disclose your identity or constitute personal information,

ForeverEntertainment님이 먼저 게시:

We used a standard Steam EULA.

Last I checked, user IDs and IP addresses are NOT anonymous and wholly disclose your identity. Friends lists are also completely personal.

A user ID indirectly identifies the holder of the Steam account. Therefore it would be treated as personal information in many EU member states. Whether an IP address is personal information or not is controversial as well: in many cases it can directly or indirectly identify a person's rough geographical location, which means many EU member states only treat IP addresses as non-personal information if they are collected as entire subnets, i.e. are 'aggregated' immediately before storage without possibility of the unanomized full IP address being stored or exposed anywhere.

The logic conflict by DAOWAce & grymwynd point out means that technically the clause pertaining to the user consenting the mining and sharing with third parties of his/her data could be declared void in many EU member states, which could present an interesting conundrum:
Tracking this kind of data falls under the EU's colloquial 'cookie law' (which covers quite a bit more than just cookies...) and requires prior consent before it is allowed. If the EULA clause in question is indeed void, then one would think it can not be used to prove prior consent. That could mean data collection on EU users could be seen as illegal activities...


(Personally I think the devs should really have this loophole closed. If not to protect their users, then to cover their own legal behinds.)

onitake님이 먼저 게시:

Metro님이 먼저 게시:

Anyone sold more than 200 cards/items on the marketplace and given Steam your SSN? Doesn't get more intrusive than that.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would Valve collect social security numbers? Did someone actually give them theirs?

Legally speaking, I don't think they are even allowed to demand I show them my SSN. However, I can imagine that US law is a bit more ... 'lax' in protecting its citizens than law in many EU states.

[QueniX]

This is some shady business.

[Ludicrous G. Gibs]

And this is why the dev-worship culture that's sprung up in gaming (especially indie gaming) lately is so dangerous: notice how his first reaction is "DON'T BLAME ME I'M JUST A DEV!" not "I'm sorry, I'll fix it immediately, paying customer without whom I'd be back doing tier 1 tech support!"

It's probably better to take responsibility when you're asking people to pay you for a product.

[VeilStrider]

Yawn people are such a whiner. They already clarified it's not done on purpose and only took standard as EULA. God some people can never think.

[tye]

zeroxxx님이 먼저 게시:

God some people can never think.

Parotted like someone who doesn't. Yes, it is becoming common practice. However, to say we shouldn't stand up and speak now, is like saying we shouldn't try to extinguish the carpet fire because it hasn't spread to the rest of the house yet.

[Jansrock]

Did they fix it yet? Or are they going to even fix it at all?

[PocketYoda]

WoOS Timeraider님이 먼저 게시:

Well.. there is something that 95% of games have in their contractual agreement without people knowing.. and now they suddenly spot it. Congatz people.. only 90% of the games on your steamaccount are allowed to do exactly the same..

This exactly, they took the standard and were honest about it, i don't agree with Spyware but nearly all games have this in them these days.

Its the sorry state games are now in, so if this bothers you, i'd uninstall your complete collection as they nearly all do this now..

[Timmy]

Fix the EULA and I will buy this.