Steel Talons Rule...?

[ASRIEL]

Do they really, though? How do you handle crowds against a Brutal AI? It feels like a constant backfoot battle.

[Pigeons555]

Are you fighting Steel Talons or fighting as the Steel Talons?

I'm no expert strategist at this game, but I personally never found Steel Talons too great of a faction. Wolverines or Titans aren't particularly useful sidegrades imo, and I think the Heavy Harvester is slower than the other Harvesters as well.

I've usually only had trouble when Steel Talons spam Behemoths at me. Maybe you could try that. Too bad you can't even train Zone Troopers to garrison them though, or your Heavy Harvesters.

[ASRIEL]

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Are you fighting Steel Talons or fighting as the Steel Talons?

I'm no expert strategist at this game, but I personally never found Steel Talons too great of a faction. Wolverines or Titans aren't particularly useful sidegrades imo, and I think the Heavy Harvester is slower than the other Harvesters as well.

I've usually only had trouble when Steel Talons spam Behemoths at me. Maybe you could try that. Too bad you can't even train Zone Troopers to garrison them though, or your Heavy Harvesters.

I'm playing as them, though against... The AI is much more competent than I (note- I've beaten Brutal AI on all 1v1 maps and some 4 player and 3 player maps).

Heavy Harvesters are about 25% slower than all other Harvesters. While I like Steel Talons, yeah... The Wolverine and Titan replacing the Shatterer and Predator throw me off a lot. They lack sufficient crowd control, which really hurts. ZOCOM excels in that area, though, at the cost of artillery.

ST looks good against enemy players in tournaments from what I've seen on Spartacus TV's channel. Maybe they're just a bad faction against AI?

[Pigeons555]

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Are you fighting Steel Talons or fighting as the Steel Talons?

I'm no expert strategist at this game, but I personally never found Steel Talons too great of a faction. Wolverines or Titans aren't particularly useful sidegrades imo, and I think the Heavy Harvester is slower than the other Harvesters as well.

I've usually only had trouble when Steel Talons spam Behemoths at me. Maybe you could try that. Too bad you can't even train Zone Troopers to garrison them though, or your Heavy Harvesters.

I'm playing as them, though against... The AI is much more competent than I (note- I've beaten Brutal AI on all 1v1 maps and some 4 player and 3 player maps).

Heavy Harvesters are about 25% slower than all other Harvesters. While I like Steel Talons, yeah... The Wolverine and Titan replacing the Shatterer and Predator throw me off a lot. They lack sufficient crowd control, which really hurts. ZOCOM excels in that area, though, at the cost of artillery.

ST looks good against enemy players in tournaments from what I've seen on Spartacus TV's channel. Maybe they're just a bad faction against AI?

I guess early game Steel Talons should be at their best, given the tech tier that the Wolverine and Titan is, also the effects of having crap Harvesters probably hurts your economy way harder the longer the game goes in comparison to your enemies' economies.

Maybe you can try to keep the pressure on early with Repair APCs keeping your Wolverines and Titans in the field healthy (I would hope that Wolverines and Titans are strong enough to fight their counterparts). I also think Titans are tall enough to shoot over most structures, so you can hide them behind you or your enemy's structures and force them to walk around, or bust defenses that the AI placed behind structures.

And about the AI, you probably already know that the Brutal AI cheats, and it's particularly bad when you mention how you can't control their crowds. The amount of units that they can constantly send at you is downright unbeatable sometimes unless you've been countering them from the start. Not to mention the different AI profiles, some of which are far easier to deal with than others, i.e. a Turtle AI getting more credits to build more defenses won't stop a bunch of Behemoths shelling them vs. Reaper-17 Steamroller drowning your base with endless Shard Walkers.


What kind of AI profile and factions do you usually fight, or do you do random both? If you've been going against Nod or Black Hand Steamrollers who spam Militant Rocket Squads non stop at you, I can see why Steel Talons might not be the best matchup against them.

[ASRIEL]

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

I'm playing as them, though against... The AI is much more competent than I (note- I've beaten Brutal AI on all 1v1 maps and some 4 player and 3 player maps).

Heavy Harvesters are about 25% slower than all other Harvesters. While I like Steel Talons, yeah... The Wolverine and Titan replacing the Shatterer and Predator throw me off a lot. They lack sufficient crowd control, which really hurts. ZOCOM excels in that area, though, at the cost of artillery.

ST looks good against enemy players in tournaments from what I've seen on Spartacus TV's channel. Maybe they're just a bad faction against AI?

I guess early game Steel Talons should be at their best, given the tech tier that the Wolverine and Titan is, also the effects of having crap Harvesters probably hurts your economy way harder the longer the game goes in comparison to your enemies' economies.

Maybe you can try to keep the pressure on early with Repair APCs keeping your Wolverines and Titans in the field healthy (I would hope that Wolverines and Titans are strong enough to fight their counterparts). I also think Titans are tall enough to shoot over most structures, so you can hide them behind you or your enemy's structures and force them to walk around, or bust defenses that the AI placed behind structures.

And about the AI, you probably already know that the Brutal AI cheats, and it's particularly bad when you mention how you can't control their crowds. The amount of units that they can constantly send at you is downright unbeatable sometimes unless you've been countering them from the start. Not to mention the different AI profiles, some of which are far easier to deal with than others, i.e. a Turtle AI getting more credits to build more defenses won't stop a bunch of Behemoths shelling them vs. Reaper-17 Steamroller drowning your base with endless Shard Walkers.


What kind of AI profile and factions do you usually fight, or do you do random both? If you've been going against Nod or Black Hand Steamrollers who spam Militant Rocket Squads non stop at you, I can see why Steel Talons might not be the best matchup against them.

You would THINK they made the Titan's "shooting over buildings" gimmick a one way, straight advantage. However, they can also be shot over structures by defenses due to their height. Fortunately, Titan is able to crush almost every Tier 2 and under vehicle in the game (and, I think some tier three vehicles that are smaller than it like Stealth Tanks).

Another upside the Titan has is, yes, it is able to take about 2 or 3 Predator Tanks in a 1 on 2/3 fight. This is let down by the higher cost it has, being easily taken out by Commandos (Wolverine is also able to be instantly killed by Commando det packs). It also suffers from mobility issues. The way I figure, they're meant to be a HIGHLY aggressive, early game rush faction. Pairing the MRTs with Missile Squads and a small mech army might be a decent idea for skirmishes/ small strike teams, but fighting against a Brutal AI is largely a defensive action like you mentioned. Like you mentioned, the AI loves spamming basic anti-vehicle infantry when I try building more than 15 vehicle units (Wolverines and Titans, mostly) at a time.

So far, I've had an easier time with Balanced and Steamroller Brutals and a much harder (hardest) time with Turtles.The Behemoth is a great defensive tool... Buuut you have to survive to Tier 3, then hope you have enough credits to pump out a sufficient amount+cover from air. I prefer to stay with Balanced and Steam on Brutal, or Turtle on Hard.

From what I've heard around, Brutal AI gets double resources from fields+ can see all stealth. I can personally confirm the seeing stealth, as I tried using Stealth Tanks on BH AI and it knew exactly where to fire and send Purifiers to kill them.

If you've got 50 minutes to spare, I recorded my last ST v Brutal game and posted it to YouTube. I'd be happy to show off that complete stomping that I took for 45 of those minutes.

[Pigeons555]

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

If you've got 50 minutes to spare, I recorded my last ST v Brutal game and posted it to YouTube. I'd be happy to show off that complete stomping that I took for 45 of those minutes.

Sure drop the link and I'll check it out after I wake up tomorrow, maybe give the same scenario a whirl.

I am an extremely casual player, so whatever help I am able to provide is just what I know about the game (which you probably know about the same if not more) and just random Skirmish experience with and against Brutal AI.

And yeah, the biggest issue with the AI is that you have to play defensive at first (hence games tend to take a while) until you can not only beat them back comfortably, but also push them back into their base. I can see why Steel Talons would have issues with the last part, if you are barely able to keep the AI at bay in the beginning and it will only get worse as the game goes on.

[ASRIEL]

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

If you've got 50 minutes to spare, I recorded my last ST v Brutal game and posted it to YouTube. I'd be happy to show off that complete stomping that I took for 45 of those minutes.

Sure drop the link and I'll check it out after I wake up tomorrow, maybe give the same scenario a whirl.

I am an extremely casual player, so whatever help I am able to provide is just what I know about the game (which you probably know about the same if not more) and just random Skirmish experience with and against Brutal AI.

And yeah, the biggest issue with the AI is that you have to play defensive at first (hence games tend to take a while) until you can not only beat them back comfortably, but also push them back into their base. I can see why Steel Talons would have issues with the last part, if you are barely able to keep the AI at bay in the beginning and it will only get worse as the game goes on.

https://youtu.be/yKfjKqizyco

I made a good few mistakes I recognize here, but man. Who’d think misplacing two or three units would screw you over so bad?

[Pigeons555]

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

https://youtu.be/yKfjKqizyco

I made a good few mistakes I recognize here, but man. Who’d think misplacing two or three units would screw you over so bad?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyfAHmpEsFQ

Here's my playthrough. Looks like I steamrolled them just before they started their tech up, definitely would not want to deal with a Redeemer or even a Purifier, Railguns or no.

[ASRIEL]

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

https://youtu.be/yKfjKqizyco

I made a good few mistakes I recognize here, but man. Who’d think misplacing two or three units would screw you over so bad?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyfAHmpEsFQ

Here's my playthrough. Looks like I steamrolled them just before they started their tech up, definitely would not want to deal with a Redeemer or even a Purifier, Railguns or no.

The Redeemers had me worried a LOT. Every time I heard the "I LIVE!" shout from across the map, I thought "this is it, boys. Time to die"

The Rage Generator makes it worse to deal with than any other thing in the game... And I am trying to figure out how you won a game in 14 minutes vs a Brutal AI. That strategy usually fails hard when I try it

[Pigeons555]

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

And I am trying to figure out how you won a game in 14 minutes vs a Brutal AI. That strategy usually fails hard when I try it

Just in general, being efficient with your credits (and therefore your units) is definitely important when you go against an AI that has essentially infinite credits (even when you have the great equalizer that is 40000 starting credits).

Anytime you are building Wolverines or any unit at all, that are being lost in every little skirmish battle that the AI harasses you with, you are basically losing your credits spent, as well as time that could be spent on other things. Watchtowers are built independent of Titans and Wolverines after all so it's not a huge deal if some go down.

I spammed Titans from the start because I knew that Watchtowers would be perfect for the role of anti-Militant Rocket Squad; the only gap that needed to be covered was anti-armor that Titans could easily deal with (or air I thought before realizing near the end that Black Hand has no air).

And then everything snowballed from there. The AI could barely scratch my defenses and Titans, so I was able to keep massing up more and more Titans until I could just power through that mess of garrisoned structures. Obviously, if I lost more Titans, I wouldn't have such a sizable army around the 9 minute mark, and I would be forced to build up more, giving the AI time to tech up with Purifiers and what not.


I also despise the Rage Generator. Purifiers + Militant Rocket Squads turns ugly nearly instantly.

[ASRIEL]

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

And I am trying to figure out how you won a game in 14 minutes vs a Brutal AI. That strategy usually fails hard when I try it

Just in general, being efficient with your credits (and therefore your units) is definitely important when you go against an AI that has essentially infinite credits (even when you have the great equalizer that is 40000 starting credits).

Anytime you are building Wolverines or any unit at all, that are being lost in every little skirmish battle that the AI harasses you with, you are basically losing your credits spent, as well as time that could be spent on other things. Watchtowers are built independent of Titans and Wolverines after all so it's not a huge deal if some go down.

I spammed Titans from the start because I knew that Watchtowers would be perfect for the role of anti-Militant Rocket Squad; the only gap that needed to be covered was anti-armor that Titans could easily deal with (or air I thought before realizing near the end that Black Hand has no air).

And then everything snowballed from there. The AI could barely scratch my defenses and Titans, so I was able to keep massing up more and more Titans until I could just power through that mess of garrisoned structures. Obviously, if I lost more Titans, I wouldn't have such a sizable army around the 9 minute mark, and I would be forced to build up more, giving the AI time to tech up with Purifiers and what not.


I also despise the Rage Generator. Purifiers + Militant Rocket Squads turns ugly nearly instantly.

I tend to go with ZOCOM. Predators, Riflemen, Rocket Squads, Shatterers and APCs for The whole game on defense. Strike the enemy base with Firehawks and Hammerheads (with some Harvester hunting thrown in)

It helps to bring the AI’s infinite credits to a grinding 100,000. For some reason, they don’t build new Harvesters. It typically works if you’ve got at least 2 corners of the map covering you. Titans for me tend to only perform as well as they did for you on maps like Unfair Advantage and Small Town USA. It might be that I don’t have much success with ST because I’m a very campy player, and ST is more of a strike fast and stay on the move type of faction.

[ASRIEL]

Update: I’ve recently recalled a niche strategy unique to ST. They can have MRTs picked up by Ox Transports. Loaded with infantry, these MRTs can still shoot down on enemies and even heal the transports carrying them. While ZOCOM and ST have a transport with a small 700 HP, GDI has one with 2100. So ST sacrifices armor for potential healing power, at least.

[Pigeons555]

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

Update: I’ve recently recalled a niche strategy unique to ST. They can have MRTs picked up by Ox Transports. Loaded with infantry, these MRTs can still shoot down on enemies and even heal the transports carrying them. While ZOCOM and ST have a transport with a small 700 HP, GDI has one with 2100. So ST sacrifices armor for potential healing power, at least.

Definitely sounds interesting but not too useful imo.

I feel that strategy with the MRTs and Oxes is far too niche to be used, particularly against AI who just mindlessly spam units. The MRTs don't have substantial firepower (compared to say a Hammerhead which can also be garrisoned to provide coverage) and 700 hitpoints sounds extremely fragile for non-GDI factions (I don't know how much health Hammerheads have, but I feel it is much higher than that). The repair capacity of the MRT won't keep up with even a handful of anything that can hit air, not to even consider a single Mantis or Slingshot.

And you can't even control Oxes if I'm not mistaken (to harass with them), as well as needing an Airfield to call them in anyway. Why not just use a Hammerhead, whose existence already completely outlaws any enemy infantry?

[ASRIEL]

Originally posted by Pigeons555:

Originally posted by HyperDeath:

Update: I’ve recently recalled a niche strategy unique to ST. They can have MRTs picked up by Ox Transports. Loaded with infantry, these MRTs can still shoot down on enemies and even heal the transports carrying them. While ZOCOM and ST have a transport with a small 700 HP, GDI has one with 2100. So ST sacrifices armor for potential healing power, at least.

Definitely sounds interesting but not too useful imo.

I feel that strategy with the MRTs and Oxes is far too niche to be used, particularly against AI who just mindlessly spam units. The MRTs don't have substantial firepower (compared to say a Hammerhead which can also be garrisoned to provide coverage) and 700 hitpoints sounds extremely fragile for non-GDI factions (I don't know how much health Hammerheads have, but I feel it is much higher than that). The repair capacity of the MRT won't keep up with even a handful of anything that can hit air, not to even consider a single Mantis or Slingshot.

And you can't even control Oxes if I'm not mistaken (to harass with them), as well as needing an Airfield to call them in anyway. Why not just use a Hammerhead, whose existence already completely outlaws any enemy infantry?

You can control the Oxes as long as you don't command them to drop things off.It is a niche and pretty useless strategy, especially factoring in Hammerheads, but it's still on the table. I used it once a long time ago to clear out some enemy Scrin buildings for funsies. In actual gameplay, Spartacus TV had a cast where the ST player used it against a (Nod?) player. Funny how GDI, lacking Ceramic Armor, have bulkier transports than ZOCOM with said armor.

Really, I'd say that it is best to load infantry into the MRT, then have the Ox pick up the MRT if you wanted to transport said infantry. A little overcomplicated, but better because it means the transport isn't totally defenseless.

[Crystal_Ignition (exo)]

while id hesitate to use steel talons online, against ai your best bet is early aggression via either orca rush or engineer rush
the ai doesnt guard their fields nearly as well as human players since they dont patrol with their AA units and tend to park them somewhere predictable so build 2 orcas and keep starving them with harass (attack heir harvesters). tip hold alt to que commands it helps swing your orcas around the sides of the map to bypass their AA
second is the engineer rush, 2 engineers (1 is needed but 2 for safety) and 5 riflemen, this is especially effective vs scrin and would never work on a player anywhere half way decent since most players online que t1 anti infantry defense and can thus snip the slow engineers however brutal ai doesnt and immediately sells off is buildings which is way it very effective at scrin whose basic infantry doesnt have a ranged attack if against other factions head for the crane and mcv instead
lastly riflemen sqaud are generally better then wolverines because of how quick you can field a number of them while you produce titans, that combo will be a good stopgap in dealing with any early attack the ai will through against you provided you micro worth a dam (riflemen are weak to crushes which the ai will liberally use at the expense of firing on your titans, use this against them if they try)
beyond that behemoths and pitbulls/ rocket infantry (depending on how much air your facing) is the name of the game, alternatively once you gain the advantage you can end it with a push of riflemen and titans just be sure to throw in some pitbulls/ rocket infantry if your against scrin ESPECIALLY traveler-59 as the ai likes to rush devastators and stormriders (if you pull that attack off you wont really have time to build firehawks where they can be effective)

my usual build is:
power plant
barrack as many engineers as needed for tib spikes, 2-3 riflemen (an additional 2-3 from tower sells)
refinery
command post (upgrade power plant immediately)
airfield (2 orcas)
war factory (1 harvester,1-2 titans)
power plant
expand (1 harvester, more attack units)
refinery (ap ammo though you can do this before if theres 1 or 2 tib spikes or blue field)

and at this point im usually cleaning up the enemy base before i can get railguns

[Crystal_Ignition (exo)]

oh and before i forget theres an interesting quirk you can "exploit" when it comes to rage gen, rage gen does not override current attack orders i dont know if this works with alt qued orders but generally tell your army to focus on the redeemer BEFORE it pops rage gen and while they whitle it down long enough that itll minimize friendly fire damage from rage gen, and if your army can destroy it before rage gen ends then if your half way decent youve already rolf stomped their expansion and decimated their economy