Do you guys hate TR3 too?

[Caliente]

TR3 is worst for me because of London levels, Lost city of tinnos and MADUBU GORGE Levels. I press switch and game don't tell me whats happening. I also played lost artifact and it was impossible to beat without guide

[Nightmare]

Hello,
I would not say I hate it.
It's still a great game, but Tomb Raider 2 was more fun to me.

There are only few TR3 levels that I really enjoyed.
Eg first Nevada and first Antarctica level were just superb.

But in TR2 (also TR1) you have an overview about the levels while some TR3 levels (like the very first one) are really confusing.

There is a difference between being difficult and confusing.

But also here: Taste is different.

Cheers!

[Xhoas]

8/10

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Caliente:

TR3 is worst for me because of London levels, Lost city of tinnos and MADUBU GORGE Levels. I press switch and game don't tell me whats happening. I also played lost artifact and it was impossible to beat without guide

No I dont hate these levels.
No level in Tomb Raider is impossible to be beaten without guide, it is a "you problem" there not a game issue.

[LegendaryThunder]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by Caliente:

TR3 is worst for me because of London levels, Lost city of tinnos and MADUBU GORGE Levels. I press switch and game don't tell me whats happening. I also played lost artifact and it was impossible to beat without guide

No I dont hate these levels.
No level in Tomb Raider is impossible to be beaten without guide, it is a "you problem" there not a game issue.

The levels in TR3 were made in 12 hrs in a single sitting, TR3 was made for money reasons as the original tomb raider team at CORE were pulled off to another project. There were B and C teams that would throw a hissy fit wanting that sweet sweet royalty money not knowing what made TR good.

Lo and Behold what happens when you put incompetents in charge, you get falling planes, lawlessness and inflated currency.

[Tilarta]

TR3 is my second favorite game in the classic series.

I think there's a level difficulty scaling mechanic and London is the highest level of the 3 options, so as that is the intent, naturally cakewalking is instead like walking on a soggy blaumangue.

[Eduardo]

People defending TR game design, and saying "it is a you problem" are really funny. These first TR games, especially since TR2, are a showcase of how not to design a user friendly game. Not only because of puzzle diffuculty, but because they don't even bother teaching you in any way or form the new moves, vehicle handling, gameplay mechanics, etc, which they added in new entries, but you are suppose to figure it out yourselves.

Game difficulty being extremely focused on trial and error, with insta deaths, only because you were not the level designer of the game, is also NOT an example of fair level design. There are literally tens or thousands of stupid traps where you are instakilled only because it is impossible to not die when playing the game first time.

Just because you people already played the games in the past, where you already know what to expect, does not mean that this bull**it game design is good. It is not.... but it also does not meant that these games are bad because of it. It is still fun, but you have to save/load like a madman in order to get through the game.

If these classic TR games had only autosaves, it would be a terrible experience.

[Lanzagranadas]

Nah, I love long and difficult levels. Of course that doesn't mean I think every level should be like that, but balancing that kind of levels with other smaller/easier ones makes the overall experience a lot more interesting than a game like... TR Chronicles.

Lud's Gate was great and the two routes make it even better. Lost City of Tinnos was great, and its difficulty makes perfect sense since it's the last level before the final boss. Aldwich is one of my favorite levels. And I love Madubu Gorge conceptually, if the kayak controls weren't so awful it would have been amazing.

I have no issue with Thames Wharf's length, my problem is that if you take the full route the first half gets too boring because you have to climb up and down the same thing like four times. But there are a few shortcuts that can save you some backtracking.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Lanzagranadas:

Nah, I love long and difficult levels. Of course that doesn't mean I think every level should be like that, but balancing that kind of levels with other smaller/easier ones makes the overall experience a lot more interesting than a game like... TR Chronicles.

Lud's Gate was great and the two routes make it even better. Lost City of Tinnos was great, and its difficulty makes perfect sense since it's the last level before the final boss. Aldwich is one of my favorite levels. And I love Madubu Gorge conceptually, if the kayak controls weren't so awful it would have been amazing.

I have no issue with Thames Wharf's length, my problem is that if you take the full route the first half gets too boring because you have to climb up and down the same thing like four times. But there are a few shortcuts that can save you some backtracking.

Not to mention you can skip Thames in 30s...

[Eduardo]

Originally posted by CryoAtlantisFairy:

Eduardo, biggest joke of the day… but thank you for buying this game, cause you may help the devs get a chance to create yet another (new) game in this exact fashion 🥴 I’m very grateful actually that you all voted with your hearts, and wallets 💕💕 I can tolerate these silly threads for that sake alone

And please make another thread about how it’s ”too difficult” and ”too dark” haha

I like these games very much. I don't mind paying for them and will probably buy next remaster trilogy for full price. That still does not mean that these games have good and fair game design. That has nothing to do with difficulty. TR games are easy after trial and error. But game design should not be about trial and error. That is an example of bad game design.

[Vic Viper]

Originally posted by Eduardo:

People defending TR game design, and saying "it is a you problem" are really funny. These first TR games, especially since TR2, are a showcase of how not to design a user friendly game. Not only because of puzzle diffuculty, but because they don't even bother teaching you in any way or form the new moves, vehicle handling, gameplay mechanics, etc, which they added in new entries, but you are suppose to figure it out yourselves.

These are Saturn/PS1/PC games from the 90s. You were expected to open the manuals and read them, and there're a dedicated tutorial level that teaches you 80% of everything without stakes.

Even simpler games like early 2D Sonic don't teach you anything in game. All buttons may jump, but rolling or spin dash were always actions you had to figure out by yourself.

At best, you had a demo/attract mode, and surprise: in TR1's attract modes, Lara is shown drawing her guns, shooting, rolling, backflipping and swan diving; the only "non-obvious" actions not covered by the tutorial. And today, opening an html page showing the controls & mechanics isn't the end of the world. Criticism is valid, but vastly overblown.

Honestly I find this era of players incomprehensible. The same group that can't fathom reading a manual sold with the game to learn basic actions and that is branded as having "TikTok" levels of attention span, would have an entire Wikia on hand or Youtube videos open to read dozens upon hundreds of info to spoil themselves on what X thing does in games like Terraria or Minecraft or how to get them, games far more impenetrable than Tomb Raider of all things.

Game difficulty being extremely focused on trial and error, with insta deaths, only because you were not the level designer of the game, is also NOT an example of fair level design. There are literally tens or thousands of stupid traps where you are instakilled only because it is impossible to not die when playing the game first time.

TR1 has none of the things you just mentioned, and again, you're expected to start with the first game. At worst, there's a boulder or two in the last level that requires a bit of reaction time. With or without save crystals, TR1 was never unfair or overly punishing.

I'd argue TR2 neither suffers too much from that, just ironically that spike wall sandwich in Great Wall and the one from Temple of Xian. As far as traps go, TR2 is still fair, it just goes a little overboard with boulders in quantity, but they're not hard to avoid at all. The worst part is the enemy ambushes with hitscan.

TR3 is the only one which suffers from trial and error BS, and even then: 3rd episode. You're very likely a seasoned TR player who can power through it or have a knack at detecting traps. Or you're very unfortunate to have it as your first one.

[Eduardo]

Originally posted by Vic Viper:

Originally posted by Eduardo:

People defending TR game design, and saying "it is a you problem" are really funny. These first TR games, especially since TR2, are a showcase of how not to design a user friendly game. Not only because of puzzle diffuculty, but because they don't even bother teaching you in any way or form the new moves, vehicle handling, gameplay mechanics, etc, which they added in new entries, but you are suppose to figure it out yourselves.

These are Saturn/PS1/PC games from the 90s. You were expected to open the manuals and read them, and there're a dedicated tutorial level that teaches you 80% of everything without stakes.

Even simpler games like early 2D Sonic don't teach you anything in game. All buttons may jump, but rolling or spin dash were always actions you had to figure out by yourself.

At best, you had a demo/attract mode, and surprise: in TR1's attract modes, Lara is shown drawing her guns, shooting, rolling, backflipping and swan diving; the only "non-obvious" actions not covered by the tutorial. And today, opening an html page showing the controls isn't the end of the world. Criticism is valid, but vastly overblown.

Honestly I find this era of players incomprehensible. The same group that can't fathom reading a manual sold with the game to learn basic actions and that is branded as having "TikTok" levels of attention span, would have an entire Wikia on hand or Youtube videos open to read dozens upon hundreds of info to spoil themselves on what X thing does in games like Terraria or Minecraft or how to get them, games far more impenetrable than Tomb Raider of all things.

Game difficulty being extremely focused on trial and error, with insta deaths, only because you were not the level designer of the game, is also NOT an example of fair level design. There are literally tens or thousands of stupid traps where you are instakilled only because it is impossible to not die when playing the game first time.

TR1 has none of the things you just mentioned, and again, you're expected to start with the first game. At worst, there's a boulder or two in the last level that requires a bit of reaction time. With or without save crystals, TR1 was never unfair or overly punishing.

I'd argue TR2 neither suffers too much from that, just ironically that spike wall sandwich in Great Wall and the one from Temple of Xian. As far as traps go, TR2 is still fair, it just goes a little overboard with boulders in quantity, but they're not hard to avoid at all. The worst part is the enemy ambushes with hitscan.

TR3 is the only one which suffers from trial and error BS, and even then: 3rd episode. You're very likely a seasoned TR player who can power through it or have a knack at detecting traps. Or you're very unfortunate to have it as your first one.

That is why I wrote "especially since TR2" as TR1 was quite fair.

Anyway, this is what I mean... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFVuYyqWe38

If you people think this is a fair and good game design, you must be very happy gamers accepting any game design faults and consider them intentional features.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Eduardo:

Originally posted by Vic Viper:

These are Saturn/PS1/PC games from the 90s. You were expected to open the manuals and read them, and there're a dedicated tutorial level that teaches you 80% of everything without stakes.

Even simpler games like early 2D Sonic don't teach you anything in game. All buttons may jump, but rolling or spin dash were always actions you had to figure out by yourself.

At best, you had a demo/attract mode, and surprise: in TR1's attract modes, Lara is shown drawing her guns, shooting, rolling, backflipping and swan diving; the only "non-obvious" actions not covered by the tutorial. And today, opening an html page showing the controls isn't the end of the world. Criticism is valid, but vastly overblown.

Honestly I find this era of players incomprehensible. The same group that can't fathom reading a manual sold with the game to learn basic actions and that is branded as having "TikTok" levels of attention span, would have an entire Wikia on hand or Youtube videos open to read dozens upon hundreds of info to spoil themselves on what X thing does in games like Terraria or Minecraft or how to get them, games far more impenetrable than Tomb Raider of all things.



TR1 has none of the things you just mentioned, and again, you're expected to start with the first game. At worst, there's a boulder or two in the last level that requires a bit of reaction time. With or without save crystals, TR1 was never unfair or overly punishing.

I'd argue TR2 neither suffers too much from that, just ironically that spike wall sandwich in Great Wall and the one from Temple of Xian. As far as traps go, TR2 is still fair, it just goes a little overboard with boulders in quantity, but they're not hard to avoid at all. The worst part is the enemy ambushes with hitscan.

TR3 is the only one which suffers from trial and error BS, and even then: 3rd episode. You're very likely a seasoned TR player who can power through it or have a knack at detecting traps. Or you're very unfortunate to have it as your first one.

That is why I wrote "especially since TR2" as TR1 was quite fair.

Anyway, this is what I mean... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFVuYyqWe38

If you people think this is a fair and good game design, you must be very happy gamers accepting any game design faults and consider them intentional features.

There are obscurities and hard to perceive/understand things, but that is part of the fun.

If you dont like or is too much for you and you dont want to waste time look for a walkthrough or guide (or ask a friend or at the forum).

People quitting is up to then, always was, always will.

[ProbusVerus]

Nope I absolutely love it. Having a blast with it!

[EF_Neo1st]

Can I tell you the real "biggest obscurity that holds you back from progressing"?
It is using the coin at Aldwych at #1 station from the right (if you coming form beginning) or from left (if coming from the middle of the level) and it is not even mentioning that at the video, it also dont mention the 3 gold bars at Midas and some other stuff.


At Aldwych itself there is also the star cog that you place on the door not on the handle showing the kog design and the fact the train you enter from below actually takes you from place to place every time you enter it (but it is easy to understand after a few times I guess).
If I was to say Aldwych itself is one of the most, if not the most, obscure level that is because even the end of the level look just like a trap player often avoid by looking at and checking it is a hole from both sides so player may wander left and right looking for an exit that was just there.

TR 3 is made for those that played TR 1 and TR 2 already and meant as a challenge for those seasoned players so there is that too, the "coin thing" is not so out of this world after considering that and similar stuff for TR 4 and TR 5 as each next game is meant to be a challenge for seasoned TR players and for that matter it these are good designs.

[Eduardo]

Classic TR games are the way they are because of constant crunch, burnout, not enough playtesting, changing devs, etc... they were forced to make each entry in just one year and it shows on a game design. Again, I like these games anyway, even with all the faults, unfairness, oversights, etc... Being a fanboy is a nice thing, but not accepting obvious game faults and laughing at new players, for pointing out these faults, has nothing to do with constructive criticism...

As I like these games and find it interesting, why these games are the way they are, I am watching a lot of "documentary" stuff about these games, and the more I know, the more sense it make why things are not so flashed out as they should be...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA-7J7bbiXQ

It is still a mircale how good these games turned out to be (even with all the mentioned faults) considering the way they were developed...