TR 4 & 5 should be DLC (I guess I was wrong, lol.)

[Macgyverthehero]

Wow, okay. I did NOT expect a new announcement of Tomb Raider 4-5-6 to get their own remastered collection so soon.

What is most surprising to me is how Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness is included with alongside TR4 & TR5. I thought because of the massive difference in engine and gameplay it would not be able to fit alongside the previous two. Since TR:AoD is in there now, I wonder how much Aspyr will do to not just update graphics, but to fix it's most notorious issues if they'll able to do so as a remaster.

From what I saw on the Steam store page, there doesn't seem to be any mention of TR4's extra content like The Times level, and the Tomb Raider Level Editor, so I do somewhat question how this new collection is the same price as the first collection, despite less content (though maybe TR:AoD makes up for it.)

I'm definitely curious. Not as excited as I was for this first remastered collection, but a pleasant surprise none-the-less.

VVVV Original thread starts below. VVVV
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I did do a thread on this idea a few days ago, however I decided to delete it as I did not think it through fully and it caused a lot of pushback. So I'll properly explain this time why I think TR4 & TR5 should be added to the current TR1-3 Remaster collection.

To start, while Tomb Raider 4 & 5 are more up to date engines compared to TR1 and TR2-3's engines, I do not believe those engines are vastly different enough to justify separating them from the current trilogy. TR2-3 is already different compared to TR1 which did not stop the remaster from including the trilogy together along with their expansions. Sure, much of the framework in TR4 & TR5 is different, but I think the engines are still similar enough to be compatible with the current collection as long Aspyr is given the proper development time to do so.

Speaking of content, I do not feel like Tomb Raider 4 & 5 are enough by themselves to be separated into their own remastered collection. Unlike TR1-3, TR4 & TR5 did not have proper expansions. TR4 instead had the Tomb Raider Level Editor and also the exclusive level "The Times" as part of the 75th anniversary of King Tut's discovery (which I'm unsure if it could be included anyway due to legality for an IRL likeness for one of the characters.) TR5 itself did not have any expansion content of any kind that I am aware of.

In regards to Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness, I've seen some people suggest Angel of Darkness to be included with TR4 & TR5. However I disagree as TR:AoD is completely different in terms of engine, gameplay, and presentation. In my personal opinion I believe TR:AoD deserves it's own remake as it's already an infamously unfinished and buggy, broken game.

If we consider the full reputation of the CORE era Tomb Raider games, I don't believe TR4-5 were as popular as TR1-3. I don't think a TR4-5 remaster collection would sell as well as TR1-3 by themselves. Sure there are people who enjoy TR4 and TR5 alone, but people should remember that these were the games that began showing CORE's reluctance to keep making Tomb Raider games as forced by their publisher, and that energy still shows with how TR4 ends, and how TR5 feels unnecessary.

The current remaster collection is $30 USD, if we consider that each game & expansion is $5 each, that makes up to $30 USD. So appropriately, adding TR4 & TR5 to the collection could just be $10 USD together (maybe add an extra $5 if they somehow include the level editor from TR4.)

That's it for my points, I hope I better explained things this time and I didn't mean to cause any negativity with this suggestion. I just felt that TR4 & TR5 would be more appropriate to be included with the current remastered collection as a way to finally make it the proper and ultimate CORE classic era Tomb Raider saga. If that happens, maybe the collection could be renamed to Tomb Raider I-V Remastered (Starring Lara Croft, lol.)

Thanks for reading!

[Nightmare]

Well, I think before we actually discuss this, they should actually start working on TR4 and TR5 Remasters.

In my opinion nothing speaks against releasing them as a separate duo instead of a DLC.

I get your point that the engines are very similar (perhaps even the same), but keep in mind that back they were all separate games.

And maybe it sells better if it's an own duo game because people might not be ready to pay 20 euro just for an "addon" rather than for a separate game.

We don't know how marketing actually goes.
Also, if they would put it as a DLC, it means they would have to touch TR1 - TR3 yet another time.

Who knows, maybe they could add some custom levels to make it look like three games, but even if it's just the original 2 games, it will be ok.

For me it doesn't matter if DLC or separate game, but I believe more speaks for a separate game.

Cheers!

[Nightmare]

For the achievements you're right, but think of this:
If games are separate, it means your library list will be bigger.
When I'm using big picture mode on TV, I don't see so many games at once.
Then Tomb Raider would already fill like half the screen.

Some months ago I bought the C&C Collection and it's a real mass, like 10 command and conquer games in my list, even annoying when I'm on the pc and scroll through the games.

For me achievements don't matter as much as game organization.
So as you can see, it's a two ended sword.

However, if you're a 'Bastler' you could create a custom launcher.
Then it would be just 1 game in Steam but the achievements would be independent ;)

Cheers!

[shadowgravy]

We're just speculating and offering our preferences here...

I'd also like to see a TR4+TR5 remaster; however I think the TR1-3 Remastered collection set a precedence that will cause buyers of TR4+TR5 to be disappointed, especially if TR6 isn't included. However, I'd be content with TR4+TR5+Times Exclusive as a separate collection under its own launcher, if it fixes various bugs and improves character models, etc. But I agree that TR3 is the moment where nostalgia ends for many older fans, and I don't know if the current remasters generated enough excitement with new players for them to want more of the same.

[KoshKa Cao]

Originally posted by HighRoller:

To OP:
It was a bad idea from the start to publish the first 3 Remaster games as a collection.
But your idea to sell 4&5 as DLC is even worse, imo.
But i get your point, even i dont want to agree with to sell 4&5 as DLC's.

It doesnt make sense to make a new collection with just 4&5.
But it also doesn't make sense to make DLC out of them and add them to the trilogy, because then it wouldn't be a trilogy anymore.

I think the best would be to sell 4&5 Remasters individually for 9-10€.

For me this is one aspect: Just look at the achievement-list of 1-3 with all 3 expansions currently.
It's a complete mess. 269 achievements over 3 games...
Its so annoying to scroll threw all those achievements, when you are searching for just one, for example, from TR2.
And now you wanna add 4&5 to the collection as DLC, to make the list even more of a mess, when they would add the achievements from 4&5 to the already existing 269 achievements? Damn. I had never so less fun with collecting achievements, then i had with this collection, because it's confusing and timewasting to scroll threw a list from 3 games and 3 expansions.

People always forget that Tomb Raider went uphill after TR3. Most fans from back in the days started hating the series after they played TR3.
"History repeats itself" (Quote from Metal Gear Solid).

Regarding achievements: Through the TR Collection I noticed that you can use a search bar when you click on achievements - it made things a lot easier

[Lanzagranadas]

Well, you have your reasons to want them to be released as DLC for this, other players have theirs to prefer IV+V as a separate remaster.

Most remasters are literally of one game. Remasters containing two or three games are a minority... more than three is basically a utopia.

Not to mention very unreliable from a business PoV. Look at achievement ratios for trilogy remasters and see how many players who buy them actually play the three games. That's a common trend in gaming community today, people ask for games with a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of content so they can feel it was worth their money, but then only a minority actually plays all the content those games have to offer. Five games in one is overkill, they would have to remaster two additional games for like... probably for 1% or 2% of the base game owners.

Even if a TRIV+V remaster doesn't sound as exciting as the first three games and their expansions, it would be possible to make up for it by adding the Level Editor, and even a few new custom levels created specifically for the remaster. That could raise its value and potential a lot, despite IV and V alone being basically one and half game on their own.

[shadowgravy]

And what does a 'Perfect Game' get you?

[jemYZX]

I am going to say this one more time.

DLC will never happen and should be a separate stand alone collection. Framerate is still a issue and causing this game to lag can lead into crashes and frozen screens.

I almost had a crash on the very last level of Tomb Raider I Atlantis and I don't want to repeat from another post last time.

[Topazlink]

The Times Exclusive Level was added to the GOG version of TR4 a while back, so I hope that means it can be added to a potential remaster too. I've played it, though not through GOG, it's fun but is literally just one very short level with a couple of cutscenes.

I hope that whatever they choose to do regarding at least 4&5, that any improvements will also be brought backwards into the I-III Remaster. I also don't really want to see them stop updating I-III as long there's things to improve and features to add. I'm concerned that I-III is gonna just be considered "finished" when it kinda isn't, I want the devs to have the time they need to make it as good as they can get it, because these games deserve it.

[v00d00m4n]

Guys, what kind of TR4 and TR5 you are speaking about?

Such games never existed officially!

Tomb Raider The Last Revelation
and
Tomb Raider Chronicles

never had official numbers in their titles (at least in EU and US, JP releases was weird, they called 1st game Tomb RaiderS) , unofficialy we - fans and even devs internally called TRTLR and TRC as 4 and 5 like that, but officially no TR 4 and TR 5 ever existed.

Also by number of updated and new features so called TR4 and 5 did not deserve a right to be called new numeric releases, they felt more like a DLC and was barely improved since TR2, which was the most major update since TR1.

So from logical standpoint Last Revelation and Chronicles could and should be released as DLC to Tomb-Raider 1-3 remastered collection, because there was not TR4 and TR5!

So collection name on arts and in game libraries could be just exanded to

TR 1-3 + Last Revelation & Chronicles remastered. Or numbers could be removed from titles all together and title TR 1-3 remastered could be upgraded to just Tomb Raider remastered collection to indicated this this collection is now full with addition of Last Revelation & Crhonicles. New purchases should include DLC by default and should cost now 50 USD with 10$ per each game include, and old purchases who got game when it was just TR 1-3 should pay extra 20 USD to get LR and C as DLC together, or 10$ per each (some people may not have enough money to buy both games together so they can buy one DLC 1st for 10$ and then month later 2nd one if those people are poor or had bad financial cituation right now).

A lot of people does not want to have new separate entry in library for 1-3 and LR+C, current remasted has nice unified launcher and engines of each game integrated into it as separate DLLs with separate folders for each game with separate assets, and there are some shared assets that used in all games, and they allso has unified achivements and this is also good, and adding Last Revelation and Chronicles as DLC under same is also good! Its good to have all classic PS1 era TRs under same hood.

Also its good because LR and C would require patch and with patches for them we would get extra updates for previous release, its also good for modding, because you would have only one folder and instance of game to install reshade and other dlls or shared assets to and one config for all of them and it will apply to them all.

And its good because when you stop playing one TR and want to play another you dont have to exit game and start another and waste time, you can also keep unified control binds and other settings for all 5 games.

Testing all 5 games under same hood is also easier and less time consuming that starting separate games.

Its good for sake of consistency because we already have 3 in 1, then why not have 5 in 1 ? It would be simply annoying and inconsistent to have 1-3 and 4-5 as separate releases in library.

And its good for sake of keeping Steam discussion in one place. Separate release of 4-5 would split separate forum on steam and its really good when all 5 discussed at same place.

Same for user guides, its good have them all together in one place for 1-3 on steam, and it will be good if 4-5 guides will appear here as well.

And its good because if they will improve engine for 4-5 we will get improvements for 1-3 as well!

From commercial standpoint its also easier and faster to maintain united single build of all 5 games than registering new entity for 4-5, keeping separate builds, making new arts and other materials, promoting new page of new separate games and so on. Even giving out keys to third party stores will be a mess.

They will surely sell more units of TR Last revelations and Chronicles if they will add them as DLC to existing TR1-3 userbase than if they will sell TRLR and TRC separately. And also release of so called TR4 and TR5 as DLC to TR1-3 will boost sales of TR1-3! So they will kill 2 birds with 1 stone! And changing price from 30 to 50 USD to sell all 5 games instead of 3 would be also commercially good idea than selling 4 and 5 separately and there is will be much less interest in 4-5 alone than in whole package of 1-5, especially considering that Chronicles was not dev's and fans favorite one.

They will be idiots if they will no release Last Revelations and Chronicles as DLC to existing game.

One more thing i forgot to mention - Chronicles have had level editor and it was best part of it. So if remaster is done it should include updated level and mod editor and mod integration via workshop and mod.io ( i vote for inclusion of both repositories with ability to get mods from both, Steam workshop will be exclusive to Steam while mod.io could be crossplatform) and will be really great idea if mod integration would work for all 5 games and surely this where we would benefit from having single workshop page for them all.

Actually i was in charge of this process i would order not just creation of update level editor and general set of tools that they used for creation of this remaster, but also an in-game level editor that would allow to build, share, and download and play levels made from existing assets (vanilla and assets added by other downloaded mods) right from game (could be implement as game number 6 in the end, that would serve as mod browser and integrated level editor), similar to how it worked in Far Cry 2-5 on consoles. With addition of more advanced out of game level editor and modding toolset. So we could have both more advanced creations made with fully featured external level editor (which actually could be also integrated into game exe but launched from in game simple level editor (to do more advanced stuff like new assets, then close it and return to more simple in game level editor) to keep everything in one place, their shell that loads extra dlls for each game allows to do it easily, its a very good loading system.

That would be the best gift they can give to old TR fans that would make this remaster and endless fun! Especially if they would take care for backwards compatibility for existing mods and levels for old game, so any of already existing mod could be uploaded without changes and played both in classic and remastered modes.

But remastered mod will only applie remastered assets if original assets used in mod, in other case it will use mod assets, so remastered mode would look mixed while classic should work fine with old mods, but advanced editor should allow to remaster old mods and pack together classic assets for classic mode and remastered assets for remastered mode for full compatibility and more consistent look.

And this would need to keep all 5 games under same hood that is used for 1-3 now.

[Nightmare]

Originally posted by v00d00m4n:

Guys, what kind of TR4 and TR5 you are speaking about?

Such games never existed officially!

Tomb Raider The Last Revelation
and
Tomb Raider Chronicles

C'mon, don't be a pea counter and hair splitter ;)

Everybody knows what is meant by TR4 and TR5 :)

[Nightmare]

In context of Tomb Raider in the Tomb Raider forums?
Sure, Turbo Racer...

[Lanzagranadas]

Originally posted by v00d00m4n:

Also by number of updated and new features so called TR4 and 5 did not deserve a right to be called new numeric releases, they felt more like a DLC and was barely improved since TR2, which was the most major update since TR1.

Last Revelation added new mechanics and stuff not present in previous games:

Pole climb and rope swing.
Corner turn while climbing walls.
Binoculars.
Different ammo types for certain weapons.
First person aim attachment for Revolver/Crossbow.
Torches.
Ability to combine some items.
New kinds of puzzles with more variety than the first three games allowed.
A twist on the classic TR structure with sets of interconnected levels.

I would agree that a number on Chronicles wouldn't make sense since it's a bunch of small side-stories that took place somewhere before the previous games, but TLR is a full-fledged TR adventure as much as 2 and 3, and it was supposed to be the fourth and last episode in Lara's journey. Whatever the right to deserve a number on a title would be, video game franchises sometimes drop numbers and go with subtitles instead.

[Nightmare]

Or they start with 1 again, like Mortal Kombat and other games.
I will never understand the logic behind that.

Cheers!

[Thornok]

TR4 to begin with

however TR4 will run on Linux even widesreen since there is a patch somewhere.

[keenan84]

Originally posted by v00d00m4n:

Guys, what kind of TR4 and TR5 you are speaking about?

Such games never existed officially!

Tomb Raider The Last Revelation
and
Tomb Raider Chronicles

never had official numbers in their titles (at least in EU and US, JP releases was weird, they called 1st game Tomb RaiderS) , unofficialy we - fans and even devs internally called TRTLR and TRC as 4 and 5 like that, but officially no TR 4 and TR 5 ever existed.

Tomb Raider The Last Revelation was reprinted as Tomb Raider IV The Last Revelation, while Tomb Raider Chronicles as you said, in Japan is called Tomb Raider V Chronicles.

https://imgur.com/a/XfqNY35