Dove and Monk are a pain.

[Machado de Assists]

I was playing through hardcore mode with Dove recently and I came to the conclusion that he's BULL. Since you can't kill enemies and they just start following you again after a few seconds, they keep stacking up and you can get cornered really easily. It's too overwhelming and straight up annoying to be surrounded by every single enemy you've came across.

And since you get pushed everytime you're hit, it's very likely you'll get screwed over, especially by ghosts and wraiths.

As for Monk, there's not really a lot to complain but I'd suggest the developers to at least give him the Crystal Shovel since you can also get surrounded by both gold AND enemies, and if there's only stone walls around you, you're left to no choice but to suicide and start over. Also, shop walls should not drop gold when you're playing as Monk, since it makes it impossible for the player to access the secret shops you have to explode your way into.

I'm not sure if I posted this in the right sub-forum, but I think it's important to leave my feedback and hear what you people have to say.

[Machado de Assists]

http://prntscr.com/62r90j
Example screenshot for Dove.

[Nasty Peep]

I think that's the point of those characters. That's part of the gameplay, it's supposed to be different and difficult.

[Machado de Assists]

We have a problem when the supposed difficulty makes it impossible for the player to progress.

[Nazenn]

Monk isnt impossible at all, monk just requires a lot more planning. Giving him an upgraded shovel would make him incredibly unbalenced as thats part of the strategy for him, deciding whether to go for shovel or weapon etc etc
You have to plan and look for ways out a lot more then you do with cadance because you have to be aware of his limitations and on not trapping yourself. But thats part of why I love to play him, the extra challenge and the change of thought that goes into him.

Dove, havent spent enough time with either way, but yes she is very hard from the few moments I spent with the charrie. But again, it somes down a lot to planning and strategy. Shes definitelly a speedrun focused charrie then normal gameplay from what I can see though

[Breed]

Dove is pretty much a speedrun character, so you may want to reach the exit as soon as possible before you get surrounded. Try to also avoid the outermost walls, they're one pretty common reason for getting stuck. I've seen people suggesting that hitting enemies many times enough (like 3) would make them teleport elsewhere, which would help her if she gets stuck. I like that idea, but it hasn't been added and I'm not sure if it will either. Bombs do this right now though.

The only silly thing with Monk, in my opinion, is that there are way more strength 3 walls in zone 1 compared to the other two zones. This means that getting a good shovel early is really important (unless you bait enemies all the way out of the rooms with strong walls) but doesn't matter much in the other two. You can still bombs the gold out of the way if needed, or even wait for the song to end (doesn't work in boss battles though).

[Garlyle Wilds]

Originally posted by Amon :^):

As for Monk, there's not really a lot to complain but I'd suggest the developers to at least give him the Crystal Shovel since you can also get surrounded by both gold AND enemies, and if there's only stone walls around you, you're left to no choice but to suicide and start over. Also, shop walls should not drop gold when you're playing as Monk, since it makes it impossible for the player to access the secret shops you have to explode your way into.

Incorrect on both counts.

If you're ever completely and hopelessly trapped on a regular (ie non-boss) floor, throw yourself down a trap door - or, in worst case, just wait for one to open up under you when the song ends! If you haven't beaten the miniboss you will have to fight in an arena upon arriving at the next floor, but honestly you get so much free equipment as Monk that winning an arena fight should rarely be much of an issue. If you do get trapped on a boss fight, it's almost certainly Deep Blues - in which case, welcome to Monk, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Always Have A Spare Bomb.

speaking of which, bombs destroy gold. It means it takes two bombs to get into the shop if it doesn't have a door, which is part of the resource management question - "is this worth it".

While any shovel upgrade is pretty much top priority for Monk, having a guaranteed Titanium Shovel/Pickaxe/Glass Shovel to start would honestly take something away from it.

I can't speak much to Dove, but Monk's deaths have long stopped being because I was a moron and trapped myself. They've become because I slip up for the half second it takes in a panic to misstep onto some gold.

[Vork]

Dove needs something to manage monsters. Its not a viable character as is. Too many monsters follow you "perfectly" with no pause. Perhaps giving dove a stun, or teleporting monsters if they hit you.

[Scrimbles]

They require more planning and thought than someone like Cadence or Melody. I quite like Dove and Monk's gameplay.

Also, conserve bombs as Dove. Don't spend them on wall secrets or opening up a shop.

[0ero the Hammer Slayer]

^Well if you attack with dove it does make monsters confused? Isn't that something? I only played her once and zoombed through zone 1 (or maybe 2, too? I can't remember it all happened so fast) because I was lucky enough to get the phase ring. Phase ring with her makes it easy peasy street. (if you don't know what that is, it lets you walk through walls without destroying them, making you invulnrable to enimes who can't break walls).

[AchromaticSky]

Originally posted by Vork:

Dove needs something to manage monsters. Its not a viable character as is. Too many monsters follow you "perfectly" with no pause. Perhaps giving dove a stun, or teleporting monsters if they hit you.

She's not supposed to be "viable". Challenge characters are not supposed to be balanced with the rest of the cast, that's what makes them challenge characters. Next you'll be saying Coda is too weak.

[Iso Koala]

I love the game, but I don`t like the character choices much. All except the bard and eli are just huge handicaps, without positive trairs. I wish the characters all had + and - in them, so I could use different characters. Ok, Monk does get free items, but it is not nearly enough to cover his handicap.

Now, and probably forever, I use only Cadence, because Bard feels like a cheat/easy mode, and the rest are way too hard for me. I have played the game for like 30 hours, and not completed a full 4 stage run yet, even as Cadence. I doubt Ill ever do it as any other character.

[吹雪 - FrostSpark]

Originally posted by Iso Koala:

I love the game, but I don`t like the character choices much. All except the bard and eli are just huge handicaps, without positive trairs.

Of course they have huge handicaps without advantages because they are supposed to provide a bigger challenge for more experienced or skilled players. It's like you are complaining that a hardmode makes everything more difficult without giving you advantages...

[Iso Koala]

Its not "of course" in my opinion. Most games have different characters in them, without all of them being just different forms of even crazier and greater challenges for the 5% of the players who are good enough.

[Paranoia]

Since many people in this thread think that Dove is a broken character or that she needs some extra abilties, I'd like to provide an alternative POV.

I've completed the All Zones Mode with a couple of different characters including Dove and frankly, the gameplay as Dove doesn't seem hard at all. Personally I found her to be easy and not particularly interesting. She simply has a different playstyle that emphasizes strategic planning.

It's worth noting that unlike some characters, Dove can equip most items (excluding weapons), so it's always nice to visit a shop. Hidden shops are great as well, since you don't have to pay at some of them, others let you have the first item for free. Not only that, but you're allowed to use bombs, which you can use to kill mobs, same goes for bomb traps.

So the main idea here is that one should probably try to explore the first few levels in search of some items (just don't explore for too long, if the song ends before you reach the end, you die), and preferrably avoid exploring in zones 3 and 4.
The best items you can get are Dungeon map or Compass, Telepathy ring, torches. That way you'll know where to go immediately, without touching crowded rooms. Even without a torch, you could open a room and immediately back away to avoid pulling all the mobs.

Utilize confusion to gain distance from enemies, especially fast ones (horsemen, ghosts, goblins). You can dig tunnels to lure a group of mobs into following you and confuse the nearest one, effectively isolating yourself from enemies while navigating your way to the next room or exit stairs. Just don't do it blindly, always plan ahead.

In fact, that's the golden rule for playing as Dove. Predict situations before they arise and don't get yourself cornered. Don't stand close to walls, don't enter small rooms if you have mobs following you, ditch exploration if you have too many fast mobs following you and most importantly don't dive head-first into the room with exit stairs. That's the most important part. Take your time and just let the miniboss and other tough enemies get out of the room and only then navigate your way towards the exit.


As for Monk, it seems like the fact that both shiny walls and golden walls drop gold is deliberate and part of the challenge. And while I loathe the shovel he starts with, it's supposedly given to the player to avoid getting completely surrounded by gold. At least it's possible to replace said shovel. Also, it might be a bug, but he can use heal spell without penalty with his shovel.