An Experiment of An Extended Melee Party

[CeterumCenseo]

in the last 2 days, I experimented with a "Golden Horde". There are 6 classes which can naturally wield polearms. Naturally, because Psionics and Bishop can wield the Mindblast Rod as well, but only this weapon, and they cannot build skill with it.

So the party is:
Lizard Figher, Fellpur Lord, Fairie Valk, Rawulf Ranger, Elf Ninja and Mook Monk. With some fiddling I managed to equip 5 of them with spears from the beginning, only the monk had to use his hand and feet, until a chest in the LM dropped the 6th spear.

All chars were trained in STR and SPD first. From the race roster you see all chars have basic capabilities in INT, PIE and VIT. I invested 1 SEN for the Lizzie, thanks biogoo.

SPD, because I wanted to replay the appearance of a very fast group of warriors smashing at anything in melee. Forget this idea, the INI of the polearms is incalculated in the turn sequence, and the party was able to move only after any monster in 95% of cases.

This party should do damage in Melee, so ranged combat, thrown stuff and damaging magic is completely forbidden. Only exceptions are insanity and the effect of the RoF effect from the burning spears.

Overall this party has been a success. It has lots of HPs, overcoming the lack of shields. A as I mentioned yesterday, polearms are by far the best weapon category for early and mid game: There are lots of set weapons available or available from vendors: Spike Spear, 2 Burning Spears, Lance, Fauchard, Stun Rod, and I just got my first Dread Spear from Bela. Polearm has no competition for certain weapons between party members, selection is plenty, and damage is comparable with Bloodlust from Arnika onwards. Even in the beginning, when most attacks miss on expert level, one char always hits, and in the wide front propagated ao by mpnorman, damage is distributed evenly over all 5 chars, and there is no "weak" char. Decent DEX and focused SPD gave them additional attacks early, and now at L11-12, the attacks seem endless, despite more than 50% still miss at 60+ CC and 80-110 WS. I did not have any luck with random drops yet, so no Mystic Spear or Raven's Bill yet. Later I will try to get a Faust for my Lord.

The game is on Expert difficulty, but not Ironman, as it is supposed to be a test.

Magic is an issue with these guys of course: Fairie and Ranger (main Alch) are meanwhile in the clear thanks to Heal foremost, the others are far behind their possibilities. The Ninja is the worst, because I did not have any skillpoint left for magic purposes, and at L11, she is now at 21 in Alchemy. Monk and Lord are at 41 and will have to wait with their promotions to L12, as they both have 41 in Divinity/Psionics. The lack of a Wizardry char is visible, I miss the buffs he provides, but it is not compatible with polearms. How could Sir-Tech not give spears to Samurais! The buff / debuff magic is surprisingly effective, despite most is cast only at PL1-3. The key for success is multiple castings on the same enemies with the same (resistance wise effective) spell. Thus 3x sleep at one group of slimes/plants/Higardi or 2x web. Saving spell picks is not an issue for this party, because without offensive spells, picks are plenty.

The party excels in melee because of the high damage weapons combined with extended range. It allows to fight enemies wherever they are and also kill enemies in front and soften up the bad guys in the second row with remaining attacks. The fighter is an absolute damage monster with 30+ in Powerstrike meanwhile and berserking a dread spear. She reliably kills 1-2 brigants per round by herself. She has by far the most kills in all the party. To be fair, she can fully focus on melee, doesn't have to Bless, Heal, impair the opposition. She needs an additional stamina boost now and then. The fairie, despite being the weakest char both in defense (Gossamer Gown, yes!) and offensively (cannot use all spears), is meanwhile in full control of the story. She has delegated the buffing duties to the Lord, and focuses on keeping the party going. She always casts a high level GA on herself in the first turn, and then she is busy either fighting or healing, buffing or removing paralysis. When the battle is over, everyone is healed back. Poison is not cured, but healed until it runs out, to boost realm and school skills.

At this moment, the party doesn't have Elemental nor Soul Shield yet (100k missing to L12). But in most situations so far, it was not critical. I did have most chars slept, webbed, paralyzed, but the decent HPs helped over most criticalities so far. But it is also true that this party has problems with enemies with strong and frequent ranged or breath attacks. Caustic Vines and Greater Seekers caused the only reloads of the game so far.

Bottom Line: This party is strong and absolutely fun to play. Despite being only melee, it requires considerable gameplay investment in magic to get those hybrids magically up and running. Heal, Identify and Light are constantly used to get things flying. When 45 is reached, it goes by itself. Offensive magic is not required in this party, but the self imposed limitation makes gameplay a bit clumsy at times. The exclusive use of polearms gives unequal melee flexibility and enormous damage. Comparable weapons in other melee categories are only available much much later (exception Bloodlust) and there is only one.

[mpnorman10]

Excellent concept and challenge with self-imposed rules. I agree, fun is the bottom line.

If you keep the restrictions but relax the "Polearm" requirement, then a Mook Samurai can use a Giant's Sword.

You could use that Samurai for Enchanted Blade, to make your melee even a little bit stronger and Missile Shield, but use your Ranger for Element Shield, since the Alchemy mixing of potions accelerates the Alchemy Skill. In the party I stopped playing for now at level 8, close to 9, the Ranger had 31 Alchemy and the Samurai had 26 Wizardry (the other characters out of the six were Level 9 but not the Samurai or Ranger, yet). The difference is exactly those increases due to mixing potions.

It might not seem like much but when the Ranger hits level 9 in within the next few battles he will definitely be able to pick level 3 spells while the Samurai most likely will have to wait a level for level 3 spells unless they are found or purchased, since the +3 increase at level-up comes after any spell picks. The Priest could cast Magic Screen at PL7 and Armorplate at PL 5, while the Samurai was casting Enchanted Blade at PL 2 and Missile Shield at PL 2.

If you want to stick with 5 characters, you could drop the Ninja and bring the Samurai, but only if you allow the Samurai to use an extended non-Polearm. Of course the Samurai will not reach until you get a Giant's sword, but you could put him or her in the first position, at least.

Since you are pushing Speed with all characters this at least becomes a possibility to consider.

When describing their statis at CC of 60 and WS of 80-110, I think you meant the Polearm Skill, right, and not Staff and Wand. That part was confusing to me at first. However, if you do allow Staff and Wand also, in addition to polearms, you can consider a staff for your Monk. Insisting upon all extended weapons, but allowing extended staffs and an extended sword, as soon as that is feasible, might be interesting.

My next experiment will be along different lines involving the recommended new player party (and for the magic damage guide after that), so I will not be able to run any experiments in this new direction you have opened, but I will read your reports with great interest.

[CeterumCenseo]

CC = close combat skill, WS = weapon skill, in this case polearm.

Looking for more extended options you are correct:

Some Mook classes can use Giant Sword, which is extended as well. But it is available much later only, requires high level Soul Shield, which means I would have to use another sword with short range in the meantime.

Staves is the next option: Quarterstaff is too little in damage. Bo/Hayai Bo is a bit better, but the polearms are much stronger. Samurai and Monk could use Zatoichi at the end, but again, available much later. Staff of Doom is available at the same time as Dread Spear, is stronger than the polearms, and the cursed status doesn't matter in this party, without any secondary option.

Last is whips, maces, which also give extended reach. Bullwhip is almost as weak as Quarterstaff, and both Cat of Nine Tails and Vampire Chain are available only very late.

Bottom Line: Other options are possible, but are a tradeoff between short term strength, where Polearm is unmatched imv, and long term, where other weapon types have stronger end game options. Another argument not to focus on one weapon type is to be prepared if the party finds a nice OP weapon: LightSword, Excalibur, Avenger...

The second key question was can hybrids develop magic reasonably fast without grinding. That answer is a clear "in principle yes, but". This means the caster specialists are faster and play more naturally, but the delay of the hybrids of not 4, but rather 6 levels compared to specialist casters is acceptable for an high HP and melee strong party. It means however the hybrids must cast spells like hell to achieve that.

I do not want to be misunderstood. I do not say this party is the strongest melee party at all. The self imposed restrictions deliberately limit its options. There is no reason to renounce ranged and/or magical damage nor a Wizardry caster. Purpose of this exercise is to find out how far the melee damage only concept can be stretched. I would say it is viable until now. But the Perfect Parties proposed in another fred offer imv a better balance between magic and melee, defensive stability and development of magic capabilities.

I am now curious to see if Soul Shield develops fast enough to go to Bayjin "naturally", ie without delaying.

[biogoo]

Extended weapons, especially spears, are very strong. Perhaps not exactly ideal to equip the whole party with them, but they are a viable alternative to sword and shield.
The huge advantage of spears is that early on, awl pike is easily available. It does huge damage at the cost of low initiative, but initiative early is irrelevant, as the characters can only swings once per attack anyways.
Then, just as the party reaches the point when second swing becomes available, burning spears come almost for free, and with a bit of luck, even spiked or perhaps mystic spears. They have similar damage to awl pike, but come with much better initiative and even hit bonus.
And finaly, once the party can reach Bela, which is still quite early in the game, dread spears open up, the best spears in the game, with positive hit and initiative bonus, very handy hex and above all, huge bonus to polearm skill (very strong effect).
Fights are also much easier with extended reach. The fighters can swing more often (if an enemy in short range dies, they can still attack the ones in extended), can swing against enemies otherwise blocked by allies, and of course can fight extended range enemies from extended range, effectively blocking allies in a row behind them. They can also hide behind other allies when wounded, yet still contribute fully with their melee damage.

[mpnorman10]

Just as a point of (potential) interest, Lanastasia (Flamestryke) did a Giant Sword Party once with 4 Mooks and 4 Giant Swords. There are always at least 3 and one more can be obtained randomly which she achieved by multiple tries. I do not remember the other details, but she had a blast with the party.

[CeterumCenseo]

There are set 4 Swords: 1 in the Mt. Wilderness Crypt, 2 in the SE Wilderness Cathedral, and the Guardian of (Marten's) Crypt also drops one.

[CeterumCenseo]

The party wiped once vs a L12 spectre sige, who AoEed the party to death with Whipping Rocks and acid bomb. There are some moments, where a good Elemental Shield would come in handy. But hybrids were at L11 only. I could not get at her in melee, because she came with some undead Trynnies.

I reloaded that game and did the same battle again, this time from a better position. I moved out of sight around a corner and handled the Trynnies without her magic artillery support. Practically she moved into melee and the party killed her without a problem. Then it ran away from the PL5 Earth elemental the sige had cast, he crumbled, went "back whence he had come", after some for him hopeless pursuit.

Vs ranged enemies, mostly plants, I move out of sight as well, behind trees mostly. Even a smaller tree provides some cover, but is not perfect. They can be blinded and also move close, where the party can take them out.

[Cyran]

Don't forget the monk/samurai can equip the zatoichi bo so if you get lucky and get an early 2 of those, your game is solid.

[Uncle Al]

That does sound like a fun party setup.

Don't know if mods are your thing, but the Christian Coder's Mod (which I really like, the changes are generally balanced and all seem to improve the game for me) would give you a ton more options because in that:

Samurai can use most polearms
Rangers and some pure casters can use most spears (but their overall polearm selection is limited. They can learn the skill though, so psionics can properly wield the mindblast rod too.)
Lizard men and Dracons can use giant swords, not solely Mooks

[Skleedle]

you need some Mystic Spears

[GrandMajora]

I recently made a party with a Samurai, Fighter and Lord sitting up front as meat shields, with a Valkyrie in the middle to stab at them with her spear. Bishop in the middle to act as primary support caster, and a Rogue to take pot shots at the enemy, and deal with security measures.

[mike.xulima]

"and damage is comparable with Bloodlust from Arnika onwards"

I don't agree with that so much. Bloodlust lets you use the beserk attack mode, and it also grants extra swings due to its speed.

I would say for any class except for Fighter, Bloodlust will outdamage polearms. A Lizzie Fighter with a polearm is very nice though.

You can grab the Staff of Doom pretty early on if you're careful, and it's better than any polearm in the game and useable by any class. I also like the Giant's Sword, although it would take a little longer before you can safely get one. I would just use a regular 2H sword until then and deal with the range being medium, not such a big deal.

Oh and if you took a Bard who uses the Staff of Doom, then you also can use Haste in every fight and not need to max up SPD so much. In Expert, you will feel the difference if you max Str and Dex first in terms of being able to hit and penetrate more often.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

"and damage is comparable with Bloodlust from Arnika onwards"

I don't agree with that so much. Bloodlust lets you use the beserk attack mode, and it also grants extra swings due to its speed.

I would say for any class except for Fighter, Bloodlust will outdamage polearms. A Lizzie Fighter with a polearm is very nice though.

You can grab the Staff of Doom pretty early on if you're careful, and it's better than any polearm in the game and useable by any class. I also like the Giant's Sword, although it would take a little longer before you can safely get one. I would just use a regular 2H sword until then and deal with the range being medium, not such a big deal.

Oh and if you took a Bard who uses the Staff of Doom, then you also can use Haste in every fight and not need to max up SPD so much. In Expert, you will feel the difference if you max Str and Dex first in terms of being able to hit and penetrate more often.

There's a playthrough of somebody doing a 2 man party, who used the level 1 crabs at the start of the game to grind their Stealth skill to 100 before they even hit level 2. They said it took them like 4 hours to do. :-)

[mike.xulima]

Grinding used to be a lot more popular in people's build advice back in the day. For example a Ranger/Ninja build I can recall would have you be a Ninja for one level, in which you were expected to grind up both Stealth and Critical Strike to 100.

Personally I like the parties to feel more natural and think you shouldn't need much if any grinding. You should make sure you always use every character in every combat round and don't let any idle away though.

[Jaxom]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by mike.xulima:

"and damage is comparable with Bloodlust from Arnika onwards"

I don't agree with that so much. Bloodlust lets you use the beserk attack mode, and it also grants extra swings due to its speed.

I would say for any class except for Fighter, Bloodlust will outdamage polearms. A Lizzie Fighter with a polearm is very nice though.

You can grab the Staff of Doom pretty early on if you're careful, and it's better than any polearm in the game and useable by any class. I also like the Giant's Sword, although it would take a little longer before you can safely get one. I would just use a regular 2H sword until then and deal with the range being medium, not such a big deal.

Oh and if you took a Bard who uses the Staff of Doom, then you also can use Haste in every fight and not need to max up SPD so much. In Expert, you will feel the difference if you max Str and Dex first in terms of being able to hit and penetrate more often.

There's a playthrough of somebody doing a 2 man party, who used the level 1 crabs at the start of the game to grind their Stealth skill to 100 before they even hit level 2. They said it took them like 4 hours to do. :-)

I'm not sure how they did this. Once you hit around 50/60 stealth the crabs just run away.

[GrandMajora]

Originally posted by Jaxom:

I'm not sure how they did this. Once you hit around 50/60 stealth the crabs just run away.

They walked up to them and let the crabs attack until they were down to about 5 HP, then ran off and hid behind a pillar. Rested, then came back for more.