Babby's First Fighting Game

[Might Be A FemMarine]

I don't play fighting games, but I want to know how to play fighting games by the time Fighting is Magic becomes a reality.

So, I probably have two or three years to wait, but still: I'm interested in learning how to play fighting games. I like the idea of one on one competition that's all about mind games, quick thinking, and timing, like a video game fencing match.

The thing is that I find the whole setup of fighting games to be ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I play LoL, and the learning curve in that game is brutal too, but I don't have to pound buttons on a fightpad in order to sling a perfect Lux combo. I've watched some tutorials out of curiosity, and the layers of complexity involved in things like "the wake-up game" and "loops" and stuff is not only opaque but also obnoxious.

Let's go further with the LoL comparison: LoL would be like a fighting game if characters got stunned after using certain skills, but during that time they were only vulnerable to very specific other skills for a very short window of time, and using that skill requires an execution trick instead of just a button press, and instead of four skills you have a double digit number of them.

Now, in order to win an exchange, I have to know exactly what my opponent's character likes to do, I have to read my opponent and dodge the attack, then I sting back with the one correct move out of twenty, then I pull a string of potentially difficult execution tricks in order to combo for more damage, if I ♥♥♥♥ up that execution trick then I've lost the advantage and am probably going to get slapped for it--

And, most importantly, I must be a master at all of those things, in all matchups, or else I am doing nothing more than button mashing.

How in the ♥♥♥♥ is anyone supposed to learn to play a game like that without going into hardcore esports mode? Is this a game or is it some kind of gaming exam?

Anyway, that's why I haven't *yet* started to play a fighting game. This one, though, bills itself as "making the game fun and accessible to newcomers."

What do you think, fellas? Is this the game to teach me how to play fighting games?

[NinjutStu]

Escrito originalmente por Tactical Rainboom:

So:

Escrito originalmente por General Kutunbe Zimbaya:

I normally always ended up resorting to just pure button mashing anyway, because I just plain do not feel like having to painstakingly grind out these games for ages before I'm somewhat decent at them.

That's why I loved BlazBlue. Despite being very deep, getting into it was just so easy, because it sets the scale very low and let's you slowly make your way up.

Skullgirls I find to be the opposite of this. Despite my better judgment (and because I have some friends who are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about the game) I decided to give Skullgirls a try and I have to say it wasn't very long until I started feeling completely inept.

I agree that the tutorial is exquisitly put together, and I loved going through it... Up until I got to the part where it expected me to somehow counter-grab whilst defending from mixups. At that point I couldn't help but throw my arms up in the air and exclaim "♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥."

Okay, now I'm torn.

1) I know full well that this is the Fighting is Magic engine; that's why I thought of this game as maybe being the one to teach me (apart, of course, from the fact that I've heard that this game is really good).

2) I am not intimidated by the idea of needing to think fast and act upon a large base of information. I was willing to subject myself to LoL's learning process, and I'm willing to subject myself to Skullgirls's learning process.

But.

3) I have already been burned once by buying a game and finding it to be utterly opaque (SF4). I'm really, really counting on the tutorial to be all that it's cracked up to be.

4) I'm not fully confident that the lack of a tutorial is the problem, as opposed to my own inclinations and learning style.

I'm just gonna mention that the genre as a whole has a pretty large learning curve.

If you're wondering about matchups and such, this game has a small cast. So you're going to be fighting against the same matchups and the characters mostly adhere to the regular playstyle archetypes (grapplers, rushdown, projectile/keepaway, etc).

The thing about these games is that eventually they require you to go into training mode and practice. That's part of the learning curve and part of the genre. The genre is based on testing the abilities of 2 players against each other and that's done through technical skill (mastery of the controls) and mindgames.

I'm not entirely clear on what about SF4 you disliked. Is it the slower pacing or sheer amount of characters/matchups? Most of the higher concepts of the genre such as mix-ups, resets, etc are mindgames and came out of player competition. It's hard for developers to teach these things because they are concepts and not basic controls.

You seem to really want to learn the genre and you've got the right mindset for it. If you're on the fence, give this game a try. The tutorial tries to teach concepts behind competitive play more than other games in the genre do. The game is also faster than SF4, but not nearly as hectic as some other fighters.

It's very possible to just enjoy the game on a beginner or intermediate level. Many players do. But if you want to get good at the genre be prepared to practice and have a competitive mindset. It just depends on what you want out of the game.

[Might Be A FemMarine]

Escrito originalmente por Ninja Stu:

I'm not entirely clear on what about SF4 you disliked. Is it the slower pacing or sheer amount of characters/matchups? Most of the higher concepts of the genre such as mix-ups, resets, etc are mindgames and came out of player competition. It's hard for developers to teach these things because they are concepts and not basic controls.

I disliked SFIV because I lack anyone to personally teach me the advanced concepts, leaving me with this BS as my only option.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6Z5VGsBw4

If an academic understanding of "ticks" and "meatshots" is fundamental to 2d fighters, I'm almost certain that the genre is not for me.

I didn't learn how to fence with things like this

http://www.puckandmary.com/blog_puck/fencing_images/chapmans_parries.GIF

and I don't want to learn fighting games through things like that series of youtube videos.

[Asterio]

I'll give you my 2 cents as an Street Fighter player.

Skullgirls is indeed an easier game to start with in comparison with SF.
That does not mean SG is a simple game. There's A LOT of things to learn here too.
You will not become a decent player from day to night and some dedication will be needed.

With that said, I'll give you some tips that will help you step up your game at the beginning.

Go beyond the tutorial.

Yes, SG's tutorial is really nice, but it's not enough.
After each lesson completed, quit the tutorial, go to the training room and practice that lesson. For example, after completing the "hit confirm" lesson, go to the training room, configure the dummy to block randomly and practice the hitconfirm technique until you are able to pick the right choice most of the times.
After that, go to the arcade mode or even online to practice it in a real match.

Also, play a little with the training room.
There's a lot of training options that can be used to help you with your learning.

Don't bother on learning complex execution tricks/combos.

Pick one or two simple combos that cover most situations.
Basically 1 middle and 1 corner combo.
Stick with those simple combos until you have learned how to open your opponent.
Combos are useless if you don't know how to get the hit, so try to focus on that first.

Learn to lose.

You will lose... A LOT.
And no, that's not a bad thing.
Actually, in fighting games the best way to learn is by losing. Every time you meet a really good player, the kind of player that can beat you every single time, try to add him to your friend list or atleast play as much matches as possible against him.
When playing against that kind of player, pay attention to the matches, try to understand what's going on and you'll surely learn something important.

[Flink]

Escrito originalmente por Asterio:

Go beyond the tutorial.

...

Don't bother on learning complex execution tricks/combos.

...

Learn to lose.

...

This is exactly right. ^

In regards to combos/tricks, if you can manage to learn a 3rd set (not necessary), it'll usually improve your odds against other beginner players as well.

As he stated, most of the time, it's just practicing these combos until they're natural, and focusing on opening them (and escaping when the opener fails).

It sounds like you've already given up on SF4, but if you'd like, i'd be happy to Endless with you if you're just lookin for some pointers.

Also, that vid you linked -> i didn't know it existed, but those were all things you could learn by playing and losing a few games online. Personally, I find a lot of new players learn how "effective" a reversal can be when they're downed, and end up digging their own graves. Don't worry too much about the terminology that they throw at you unless you want to follow tournaments right off the bat.

SF4 basic mechanics are nothing more than ->

• Throws block throws (Tech hits)
  
• Standing guards block Mid and High attacks, as well as attacks from above.
  
• Crouching guards block Low and Mid attacks.
  
• Reversals = counters; These are typically just EX moves (high priority) or fast hits that hit your opponent before their attack connects. *

* With the exception of EX moves, SG plays out very similarly.


In both games, you're playing a morphed "Rock Paper Scissors" and need to learn to follow up with a combo when you win the outcome.
Everthing else in your linked vid just details different ways of doing it.

One last thing, I don't think this has been mentioned, but if you're seriously considering getting into fighting games, I would recommend investing in a fightstick or at the very least, some form of a controller. You CAN keyboard it, but unless you know how to naturally emulate a "semi-circle motion" with arrow keys or WASD, you probably won't have a very good time. Personally, I just use a USB'd PS3 controller.

[1.2M | Missingno.]

If you don't have the patience to even watch a video... I don't think anyone can help you. The many guides to SF4 fans have put together for you are among the best resources out there.

[Asterio]

Escrito originalmente por Flink:

You CAN keyboard it, but unless you know how to naturally emulate a "semi-circle motion" with arrow keys or WASD, you probably won't have a very good time.

That's really easy, actually. A couple hours practicing the motions and you sort this out.

The real problem with keyboards is that you will not be able to play outside your house.
You can't go to a competition or even to a casual play with the players of your region.
If you plan on getting to a high level of play, you'll need to get some offline experience.
In my opinion, that's the main reason to get an arcadestick/hitbox/controller.

[generatedname]

Escrito originalmente por Asterio:

Escrito originalmente por Flink:

You CAN keyboard it, but unless you know how to naturally emulate a "semi-circle motion" with arrow keys or WASD, you probably won't have a very good time.

That's really easy, actually. A couple hours practicing the motions and you sort this out.

The real problem with keyboards is that you will not be able to play outside your house.
You can't go to a competition or even to a casual play with the players of your region.
If you plan on getting to a high level of play, you'll need to get some offline experience.
In my opinion, that's the main reason to get an arcadestick/hitbox/controller.

you can rig up a keyboard to send the inputs of controller. there is at least 1 pro that shows up to the PS3 tournies using a keyboard.

[Asterio]

Escrito originalmente por generatedname:

you can rig up a keyboard to send the inputs of controller. there is at least 1 pro that shows up to the PS3 tournies using a keyboard.

If you are talking about the same thing I'm thinking, this mod is more expensive than an arcadestick. Specially if you lack the knowledge to do the customization.
Would be better and cheaper to just get an hitbox if you want to stick with the keyboard style.
Also, EVO, and other tourneys, does not accept those keyboards.

[generatedname]

Escrito originalmente por Asterio:

Escrito originalmente por generatedname:

you can rig up a keyboard to send the inputs of controller. there is at least 1 pro that shows up to the PS3 tournies using a keyboard.

Also, EVO, and other tourneys, does not accept those keyboards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PLPVhQ8jw

[Daffodil]

If you're the same Tactical I'm thinking of: hey! What's up?

To answer your question: Skullgirls is a fantastic game with one of the best (if not -the- best) tutorial I've ever seen in a fighter. It does a great job explaining the basics in a way that makes it possible for someone unfamiliar with fighters to learn. Please note that I said "possible" and not "easy." I will be blunt: if you're not willing to put in a rather large amount of effort to teach yourself, you're going to become very frustrated very quickly. This goes for any fighting game, be it Skullgirls or Street Fighter or whatever other game you can think of. It's not really an easy genre to get into, and there isn't a game out there that will hold your hand until you're tournament ready. That's all practice and dedication. If you were too frustrated by SSF4 to learn, this genre isn't really for you.

But if you're dead-set on playing Fighting is Magic when it comes out, Skullgirls is a good place to start. I played quite a bit of the leaked Fighting is Magic build when it was posted way back when, and unless a lot has changed, they feel very similar to eachother.

tldr -- Fighters hard. You put in effort, you do good. No effort, you lose and cry.

[Might Be A FemMarine]

Escrito originalmente por Daffodil:

If you're the same Tactical I'm thinking of: hey! What's up?

To answer your question: Skullgirls is a fantastic game with one of the best (if not -the- best) tutorial I've ever seen in a fighter. It does a great job explaining the basics in a way that makes it possible for someone unfamiliar with fighters to learn. Please note that I said "possible" and not "easy." I will be blunt: if you're not willing to put in a rather large amount of effort to teach yourself, you're going to become very frustrated very quickly. This goes for any fighting game, be it Skullgirls or Street Fighter or whatever other game you can think of. It's not really an easy genre to get into, and there isn't a game out there that will hold your hand until you're tournament ready. That's all practice and dedication. If you were too frustrated by SSF4 to learn, this genre isn't really for you.

But if you're dead-set on playing Fighting is Magic when it comes out, Skullgirls is a good place to start. I played quite a bit of the leaked Fighting is Magic build when it was posted way back when, and unless a lot has changed, they feel very similar to eachother.

tldr -- Fighters hard. You put in effort, you do good. No effort, you lose and cry.

You -would- recognize my name, with all the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I've put you fine folks through in recent days.

Anyway, like I said, my frustration with SF4 is because I don't have anyone to teach me anything.

That said.

I think reading all the advice in here has perhaps brought me to an epiphany or three. Let me see if I have this right about what people are telling me re: the basics of fighters.

1: Don't be intimidated by terms like "reset" and "OTG". Those are just names for why your combos are possible.

2: Block, sting back with one of your tricks that's specially made for stinging back, and the worst that happens is your opponent getting away scot-free.

3: Use zoning to open them up with a fakeout or by catching them doing a noob mistake. Repeat until it's second nature, then work on a bigger vocabulary for nailing zoning wins.

[1.2M | Missingno.]

Mostly, except for #2 the worst that happens is that they block your counter and counter *you*. Some moves are guaranteed punishable on block, so those should always be countered when you can react to them, but for ones that aren't they can block before you can hit them. It all depends on which animation ends first, their attack animation or your block animation, and if your block ends early enough that your counter's startup is still during their attack's recovery. Most of the fastest starting counter moves tend to have that long recovery animation that makes them counterable too, which makes them very risky.

In the case of 'safe' moves that aren't punishable, your opponents won't always just stop and block if they expect that you won't try to risk the punish. They might go for another attack or a throw instead. So if you try to go for the punish and they're not blocking, you might get them. Or if you think they will stop and block, then you throw them instead. Attack-block-throw is effectively a twitch reflex rock-paper-scissors played many times in quick succession, and if you pay attention you can spot bad habits where they do the same thing too much on autopilot. The best players can be said to practically read their opponents' minds - Daigo Umehara is notorious for just walking right up to his opponent and doing an extremely punishable uppercut (shoryuken) out of the blue, and successfully landing it so much that it became known as the Umeshoryu.

[Armosis]

This thread is a great resource for the large number of people who are in the same boat as OP. I've been trying to get into fighting games for years now, and I always hit a wall in terms of skill right when things start going well. I played SG in its early days on 360, and I'm going to give it another shot now that it's on Steam.

I can understand where OP is coming from when he says that he doesn't want to learn from YouTube videos and guides made by pros. Usually they have a very hard time understanding a newb's mentality which is key if you're trying to teach someone new. And, maybe it's just me, but it seems like a lot of people put up "tutorial videos" that are thinly disguised as just showing off or flaunting their accomplishments/progress and are ultimately useless. You really have to sift through a lot of ♥♥♥♥ to find videos on YT that are actually useful for newbs, and that's annoying. Op should try Miles923's channel on YouTube. He's a fighting game vet who is very understanding of newcomers and even has some videos where he's teaching himself SG. Might be useful to you, I dunno.

I think one of my biggest issues with fighting games is I'm rarely able to find someone around my skill level to spar with. I've tried looking online for a partner, but that hasn't worked out very well. It's either "I may have beaten you 13-0 but I still consider myself a complete newb to fighting games" or "lol how do i fireballs"

Steam should make it easier to find someone to play with... Hopefully.

[Flink]

Escrito originalmente por Asterio:

Escrito originalmente por Flink:

You CAN keyboard it, but unless you know how to naturally emulate a "semi-circle motion" with arrow keys or WASD, you probably won't have a very good time.

That's really easy, actually. A couple hours practicing the motions and you sort this out.

It's all a matter of preference. For instance, I keyboard on SF4 when I have a guest playing locally, but I'd never competitively play zangief with a keyboard. I feel like I'd make too many mistakes.

I just meant to point out that it's an extra bump on the path to learning a fighter, for one who might already be hesitating to try one.

Escrito originalmente por Armosis:

And, maybe it's just me, but it seems like a lot of people put up "tutorial videos" that are thinly disguised as just showing off or flaunting their accomplishments/progress and are ultimately useless. You really have to sift through a lot of ♥♥♥♥ to find videos on YT that are actually useful for newbs, and that's annoying.

This is probably true, but on the offhand, some of those vids are meant for "veteran fighters" who are "new to the series", or simply seek tips to improve.

As you've already stated, this really is a difficult genre to get into, if you don't have the right mindset.

I'm not sure what SG Online is going to be like on Steam, but I can tell you that I found that Endless Battles on SF4 really opened up my eyes to my own weaknesses and helped me polish my strengths and strategies.

--

Back on topic, yes I would still recommend SG to any newbie fighter, even after all that has been said. IMHO, the tutorial really is that good in this game. (At least compared to the tutorials in any other fighter i've ever played.) It gives you a chance to understand and try the core mechanics of the game, instead of just throwing a bunch of random combos and moves at you.

[Pullahoko]

I'm telling you right now; they put a LOT of work into this tutorial.

If you complete the tutorial to finish, you'll really learn a lot. You'll learn a lot of basics, some more advanced stuff, and you'll also learn about every character in the game (move lists, and also how each character should be played.)

I haven't played a fighting game since Marvel Vs Capcom 2, and I was able to go through the tutorial and actually learn a lot.