Game is great, but too sexualized

[GooglyMoogly!]

Good god, does every character in this game need a fetish outfit/large boobs?

One big male fantasy

Other than that it is a top notch fighting game

[Kan-el]

C'mon guys, it's just a game, what about DoA Xtreme 2 ?

[Uueerdo]

Автор сообщения: Trivial Man

What I'm asking is how does, using your examples, Baiken not wearing a bra make the game better? What does bra-lessness add to the game that a bra couldn't?

And how would adding a bra improve the game?

[Scuttle]

Автор сообщения: mikez

Peacock, Painwheel, Double, Squigly, and Big Band are counterexamples.
Ignoring Big Band, that's still half the cast.

It's cool though, all these complaints come from men.

Female and radical feminist here coming out of hiding to say something. And before anyone says anything, yes, I know the lead animator is a woman. But that doesn't mean that her views are representative of all women everywhere, okay?! I don't know why people keep bringing that up as if it means anything. Women aren't some faceless, mindless conglomerate who agree on everything all the time.

But anyways, I digress! On one hand, what I really like about Skullgirls is that the female characters are complex and have clear, distinct motives and backstories (and *gasp* friendships between girls -- the game passes the Bechdel Test!) that is not typically found in video games, and I applaud you for that. Apparently it's still revolutionary to depict female characters in video games as actual people and not defenseless maidens that need rescuing or sex objects that exist solely as eye candy for the heterosexual male audience.

BUT one thing that has always been alienating to me (and other like-minded women that I've spoken to) about fighting games is the needless objectification of female characters in these types of games. Yes, people are going to try to justify it by saying "oh Street Fighter/Soul Calibur/Tekken/*insert game of choice here* is so much worse!" but by saying that, you're still admitting to a wrong but trying to downplay it by comparing it to other games that are "much worse." Like yeah the characters are developed but they're still objectified??? Filia is 16 for crying out loud and we get to see her panties on multiple occasions. Valentine has a ridiculous breast size for her itty bitty waist. The animation is beautiful, but I can't help but think it's unnecessary to see Parasoul's underwear every time she does a kick, or to see Valentine break a thermometer in between her breasts. And when it all comes down to it, the people who play these games aren't going to pick the character they find the most "sexy" or "appealing." They're going to pick their favorite fighter.

I like Skullgirls for what it is, but I think these are some issues that need to be addressed with the fighting game community as a whole, and not downplay it by comparing it to other games. And yeah, we can say that it's just a game, and that it's all for fun and people aren't taking anything seriously out of the way women are portrayed in these types of games, but I guess you wouldn't know what it's like to go to a fighting game tournament when you're a girl, or the way that people in the community treat you.

[Kafuin]

You know what really annoys me? People are free to have opinions on art style/chracter design. However, art is also subjective. You don't have to like it. Going on to a forum to discuss how much you don't like it really doesn't solve the issue of you not liking it. And why does it matter? How many people actually bought this game not for the gameplay/mechanics but for it's slight sexual content? I love Ahad's style, boobs or not.

I also like breasts.
I'm also going to make the assumption that everyone else here does too.

[Redblaze27]

Автор сообщения: cellar door

Female and radical feminist here coming out of hiding to say something. And before anyone says anything, yes, I know the lead animator is a woman. But that doesn't mean that her views are representative of all women everywhere, okay?! I don't know why people keep bringing that up as if it means anything. Women aren't some faceless, mindless conglomerate who agree on everything all the time.

What do you suggest to determine it too sexualized then? Get together a group of women together to play the game with zero prior knowledge and survey them for a bit (without making the intent of the survey clear, to avoid tampering impressions) after playing?

I mean, if the game is too sexualized, it should come up or be eluded too in the groups impressions without having to specifically ask about it.

[Trivial Man]

Автор сообщения: Uueerdo

And how would adding a bra improve the game?

I laid out my issues with the game's portrayal of women several posts ago. I believe having them be less sexualized would alleviate these.

But you're avoiding the question. If your argument here is that to you it's an ultimately pointless distinction between sexy and not, then say that. Otherwise tell me how it makes a difference.

Автор сообщения: TestamentX2

You know what really annoys me? People are free to have opinions on art style/chracter design. However, art is also subjective. You don't have to like it. Going on to a forum to discuss how much you don't like it really doesn't solve the issue of you not liking it. And why does it matter? How many people actually bought this game not for the gameplay/mechanics but for it's slight sexual content? I love Ahad's style, boobs or not.

I also like breasts.
I'm also going to make the assumption that everyone else here does too.

I'm not complaining about the art style. The dark deco art style is really cool. What I'm complaining about is the content. An artist can be incredibly talented but still create objectionable media. And complaining about it is certainly more likely to solve my issues with the content than just shutting up and accepting it. Furthermore, the mere presence of breasts isn't what I have an issue with. I like that there's a range of body types in this game, breast size included, but I don't like that nearly all of them are still objectified. Like Double I mentioned earlier could be drawn so she has big boobs, but also so that her habit doesn't show that off like any real habit would.

Автор сообщения: node357

absolutely. but we need more male body parts on display too, for everyone who likes those.

Again, no one is actually proposing this ridiculous idea. Inserting oversexualized men into a game would do nothing to make it less oversexualized.

Автор сообщения: Blazey

It doesn't, it's just character design.

Thank you for addressing the question. If this is the case, I invite you to think about why others would complain about this if you don't think it matters. And regardless of what the conclusion is you come to about that, I ask you to think about what would be lost if these complainers were humored anyways.

[Trivial Man]

Автор сообщения: node357

this is getting very confusing. can someone please just indicate the actual harm done by cartoon sex objects in a game so we can see the actual problem, if any?

I suppose I should lay out my views on this since it's kind of a pointless conversation without it. Women being portrayed in an overly sexual manner is a big problem in media in general, but for some reason especially video games. It can lead to unrealistic expectations about body types, it can make women feel secondary to men when the only portrayals of them is blatent objectification, and it can even breed intolerance in men who, having seen only these damsel in distress or cheap ♥♥♥♥♥ characers, genuinely begin to think of women as lesser than men. Granted these are some extreme examples and I'm no expert on the topic, but there really is no upside beyond cheap titilation and plenty of downsides.

Personally I'm against it in this game in particular because I like the vision the creators had of having a primarilly female fighting cast, but I feel like that's undermined if the characters are still male fantasies. More practically, I get snide comments when I try to play this in public and people see Cerebella or Valentine. And can't really do anything but laugh and agree that yep, those are some pretty shameless characters for no good reason.

Автор сообщения: cellar door

BUT one thing that has always been alienating to me (and other like-minded women that I've spoken to) about fighting games is the needless objectification of female characters in these types of games. Yes, people are going to try to justify it by saying "oh Street Fighter/Soul Calibur/Tekken/*insert game of choice here* is so much worse!" but by saying that, you're still admitting to a wrong but trying to downplay it by comparing it to other games that are "much worse." Like yeah the characters are developed but they're still objectified??? Filia is 16 for crying out loud and we get to see her panties on multiple occasions. Valentine has a ridiculous breast size for her itty bitty waist. The animation is beautiful, but I can't help but think it's unnecessary to see Parasoul's underwear every time she does a kick, or to see Valentine break a thermometer in between her breasts. And when it all comes down to it, the people who play these games aren't going to pick the character they find the most "sexy" or "appealing." They're going to pick their favorite fighter.

I like Skullgirls for what it is, but I think these are some issues that need to be addressed with the fighting game community as a whole, and not downplay it by comparing it to other games. And yeah, we can say that it's just a game, and that it's all for fun and people aren't taking anything seriously out of the way women are portrayed in these types of games, but I guess you wouldn't know what it's like to go to a fighting game tournament when you're a girl, or the way that people in the community treat you.

Since you apparently missed these.

[Scuttle]

Автор сообщения: Redblaze27

Автор сообщения: cellar door

Female and radical feminist here coming out of hiding to say something. And before anyone says anything, yes, I know the lead animator is a woman. But that doesn't mean that her views are representative of all women everywhere, okay?! I don't know why people keep bringing that up as if it means anything. Women aren't some faceless, mindless conglomerate who agree on everything all the time.

What do you suggest to determine it too sexualized then? Get together a group of women together to play the game with zero prior knowledge and survey them for a bit (without making the intent of the survey clear, to avoid tampering impressions) after playing?

I mean, if the game is too sexualized, it should come up or be eluded too in the groups impressions without having to specifically ask about it.

If such a hypothetical survey were conducted then ideally the sample should include opinions from women who don't typically play video games as well as those who do. Perhaps instead of playing the game they could be shown a video of the gameplay instead? I only say this because the reason why people are giving examples of girls who have played the game but didn't have a problem with it is because when you grow up playing these kinds of games, that hyper-sexual portrayal of women can sometimes become normalized or even emulated. I've seen it happen with other girls, and I personally know this because for the longest time I never had a problem with the way female characters were portrayed either, just because it was how I grew up. I was a bit of a misogynist myself, looking back on the spiteful way I often thought of other women. In fact, I think back then the only thing I lamented were games that didn't have an option to play as a female character. I used to try to justify these sexualized female characters in games by thinking at least they were being inclusive of women, that any representation is better than no representation at all. Socialization is very hard to undo, and I shudder when I think of the person I used to be back when I tried to defend these games.
Obviously that's just my experience, and everyone's experience is different. But people who make broad assumptions that girls don't have a problem with these games just because they haven't heard any girls speak up about it aren't taking into account several different factors. There's a great pressure to conform, to be "one of the guys" when you're the only girl in a group of several guys. If you speak up you're labeled all sorts of nasty things. I don't know about others, but I really don't want my gender to be made apparent when I'm playing games with other people, because you DO get treated very differently in-game if people know you're a girl. I have loads of evidence to prove it if anyone tries to deny this. Online it's much easier to hide my true gender, but when you're with a group of people irl or you're forced to use VOIP it's not like it's something I can hide. Not because I'm ashamed to be a woman, mind, but because I'm just here to play the game, as are the rest of us. I'm not about to make a feminist statement every time I see a woman in a game with her boobs hanging out, unless people are in here saying "WELL WE HAVEN'T HEARD ANY WOMEN COMPLAIN YET!"

Yeah, sorry. Long rant. I tend to do that.

[x0EvilPikachu0x]

You could always just, you know, not play. Not that I'm into hypersexualizing women, but damn. Seems everyone has to be offended by something nowadays.

[Trivial Man]

Автор сообщения: node357

thank you! i did miss them, or forget them while trying to take this all in. my brain isn't what it used to be. i appreciate you re-iterating for me.

No problem. And like I said, for me the actual tangible detriment this has is that I get funny looks and snide comments, and I feel a little bit ashamed while I play this game. But I'm a man and my gender has more or less been dominant through most of history. I don't have to worry about the only characters I have to look up to as role models having enormous breasts and a slinky nightgown or being a damsel in distress, never able to do anything on their own but wait for a man.

cellar door, and I'm sure many other women, have had significantly different experiences though and they are why you should really care about this.

Автор сообщения: RPGJunky

You could always just, you know, not play. Not that I'm into hypersexualizing women, but damn. Seems everyone has to be offended by something nowadays.

But the problem with that is what do they play? Everyone has already mentioned that Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter and vs. Capcom, and every other fighter is even worse about all this. People shouldn't have to avoid a game just because of their gender, and they really shouldn't have to avoid an entire genre.

Edit:
I mean, think about if this was a race issue instead. I'm sure you wouldn't say that black people just shouldn't play games that objectify them, so I'm not sure why you would say women just shouldn't play games that objectify them.

[Scuttle]

Автор сообщения: Trivial Man

Edit:
I mean, think about if this was a race issue instead. I'm sure you wouldn't say that black people just shouldn't play games that objectify them, so I'm not sure why you would say women just shouldn't play games that objectify them.

I love how much this point is proven just reading through the rest of the discussion. A lot of the men in this thread are having trouble seeing women as actual people, let alone as YOUNG GIRLS playing these games whose developing brains might not be able to grasp the concept of "it's just a game" that so many are rushing here to defend...
Oh, but I forgot. It's not like we play games or anything. Even GameStop knows that the only games we want to play have to include fairy dust and Disney princesses.
:facepalm:

[Kafuin]

@Trivial Man Sorry, my post wasn't really directed towards you, no offense. Mostly to the OP.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, there's nothing wrong with this game, sexually. I might catch flack for that but like I said, it's subjective. Panties and boobs everywhere, oh my. When I go into training mode or fight some friends, I (and hopefully most of us here) don't think "Man I love seeing Parasoul's panties, it's the only reason I play her or this game" *drool*

This is almost like Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines controversy. TO ME <<< (I'm putting emphasis here) A song is just a song, a game is just a game, the only context that should be taken out of it is how the listener/player interprets it. (Once again, subective)

For anyone who plays League of Legends, one of the champions released, Lucian, can be viewed in many ways, the most common being 1. A stereotypical black male with guns for weapons or 2. Another character fleshed out from concept art by an artist with no stereotypes ever being in the equation.

I've got some choices here. I can CHOOSE to be offended by this character design and complain about how it wrongfully depicts black males and their culture in today's society (This kind of seems to be the case with Skullgirls) OR I can probably face this choice; it's just another character in a game. It would be a different story if the design was intentionally made to demean a certain race/gender but we can't prove that.

And we never will.

[Redblaze27]

Автор сообщения: cellar door

If such a hypothetical survey were conducted then ideally the sample should include opinions from women who don't typically play video games as well as those who do. Perhaps instead of playing the game they could be shown a video of the gameplay instead? I only say this because the reason why people are giving examples of girls who have played the game but didn't have a problem with it is because when you grow up playing these kinds of games, that hyper-sexual portrayal of women can sometimes become normalized or even emulated. I've seen it happen with other girls, and I personally know this because for the longest time I never had a problem with the way female characters were portrayed either, just because it was how I grew up. I was a bit of a misogynist myself, looking back on the spiteful way I often thought of other women. In fact, I think back then the only thing I lamented were games that didn't have an option to play as a female character. I used to try to justify these sexualized female characters in games by thinking at least they were being inclusive of women, that any representation is better than no representation at all. Socialization is very hard to undo, and I shudder when I think of the person I used to be back when I tried to defend these games.
Obviously that's just my experience, and everyone's experience is different. But people who make broad assumptions that girls don't have a problem with these games just because they haven't heard any girls speak up about it aren't taking into account several different factors. There's a great pressure to conform, to be "one of the guys" when you're the only girl in a group of several guys. If you speak up you're labeled all sorts of nasty things. I don't know about others, but I really don't want my gender to be made apparent when I'm playing games with other people, because you DO get treated very differently in-game if people know you're a girl. I have loads of evidence to prove it if anyone tries to deny this. Online it's much easier to hide my true gender, but when you're with a group of people irl or you're forced to use VOIP it's not like it's something I can hide. Not because I'm ashamed to be a woman, mind, but because I'm just here to play the game, as are the rest of us. I'm not about to make a feminist statement every time I see a woman in a game with her boobs hanging out, unless people are in here saying "WELL WE HAVEN'T HEARD ANY WOMEN COMPLAIN YET!"

Yeah, sorry. Long rant. I tend to do that.

Its cool about the rant, I tend to do that myself.

For the hypothetical survey, of course there should be women from various walks of life, be they gaming enthusiasts, casual gamers, hardcore feminist, various cultural backgrounds, artists, etc...

I can totally agree with your dilema about playing female characters in videogames, in fighting games I seem to gravitate towards female characters due to preferable playstyles but I always feel ashamed when I find i'm really good with the most sexualized character in the game. I just want to be able to enjoy the game without having to worry if people are going to think i'm a pervert or something due to my character choices.

[Trivial Man]

Автор сообщения: Blazey

It doesn't matter because it's the creators choice of characters and they can do whatever the ♥♥♥♥ they want with their creation.
And nothing.

While true, this is also kind of ignoring the issue. Obviously they can create and do whatever they want however they want, the issue is whether or not they should. But if after all this you still disagree with me about this there isn't much more I can say to convince you.

Автор сообщения: TestamentX2

I've got some choices here. I can CHOOSE to be offended by this character design and complain about how it wrongfully depicts black males and their culture in today's society (This kind of seems to be the case with Skullgirls) OR I can probably face this choice; it's just another character in a game. It would be a different story if the design was intentionally made to demean a certain race/gender but we can't prove that.

And we never will.

These are some good points, but I feel you exaggerate how much choice players will have when viewing this. I think for the vast majority of people these kind of internalizations of characters happen on a much more subconcious level. Certainly your thought process minimizes any damage these things could do, but my issue is with the fact that this type of analysis is needed at all.

Автор сообщения: node357

see, that's how i feel. i feel like i'm contributing to a terrible problem when i play Skullgirls, condoning something as bad as racism and homophobia. i feel guilty but i'm so tired of speaking out against things that i know are wrong but most of the world doesn't care about. then again, i'm using Windows, like the known majority of computer gamers, which is a crime against humanity in its own right. but i guess the damage is pretty much done in Skullgirls; unlikely anyone will deem it cost-effective or even worthwhile to change all the characters to remove the pornography. i doubt anyone who believes in EULA's would have any problem with most social atrocities anyway. i'm glad some people out there still have the energy to speak up, even if it's for naught. each time a new fighting game series is created, they have a chance to correct the problem of making their female characters sexy little dollies, but each time the problem is just made worse instead.

Well don't feel too bad. I still like Skullgirls and respect it's vision as well as the better elements of characterization that the girls have. There is a lot of positive things to say about this game! The whole reason I've gotten so caught up in this topic is the crazy amount of people saying this problem simply doesn't exist. You can admit things you like have problems and still enjoy them. And if you don't how are those things ever supposed to improve?

And the other reason I'm so vocal about this with Skullgirls as opposed to other worse offenders is that Skullgirls is still new and malleable. This is the first game of a brand new IP and the characters can still change dramatically. Other established franchises have these issues too deeply ingrained to change now. And the Skullgirls devs are very good at listening to fans, so I stand a better chance of being heard here and making at least a small difference than I would protesting outside Capcom HQ or wherever.

[Caly]

Why is this topic still going? People are going to have opinions, let it die.