Why teams? Why super long combos?

[Noodl]

(I apologize in advance, I have so many thoughts going on at once, and I just edited and let things play out, it may not make the most sense. I am a bit scatterbrained, bear with me.)

Look. I've been playing this game for literal years. Years. Since the day of release. I've got close to 600 hours in this fkfest and just hear me out. (probably less hours than others but that isn't the point)

Teams. Destroy. This. Game.

(combos too)

While I don't agree with the team concept in any fighting game, I can see why they work. They cover the weaknesses of the character on the screen with their assists. They allow a player who finds a great flaw in their current gameplan to really change things up and take the advantage over their opponent, and I know breaking habits is hard. It takes a change in pace, that is what a team game can provide. That's nice and all but at their core, a team fighting game is kind of bad for all involved. Here is why I think so.

They allow the player using the team to play more poorly. This is because they can do usually unsafe things with their character and cover it with other characters. It is basically a handicap mode. That move you like that's unsafe on block? Just assist it. Handicap. You are now safe. Here is even an advantage! You got to reset neutral for yourself on bad plays! Keep doing that, there is nothing wrong with making bad plays so long as you lab out an assist. This makes everyone have to learn and know all the possible combinations and assists and frames and well...........it removes fun. It really does. New players quit. So fast. So. Very. Fast. And I don't blame them.



(a note in here, switching a character mid fight, I think is actually a good concept. It can help a player reset themselves and come with a different approach, but that team character shouldn't be a thing outside of that.....I think I hate assists?)



Which leads into my next point, and before you start to riot, I have been playing fighting games for just about 20 years now:



NO ONE WANTS TO SIT IN TRAINING MODE FOR DAYS



No one. Not new players. Not old players. No one.

Literally the only reason people do it is because they have to. If you think otherwise I want you to look in the mirror and ask the person you see there, "Why do you continue to lie to me?"



Everyone just wants to fight. Period.


Huge combos aren't fun. Never have been. Never will be. Yeah ok cool you caught me in neutral with a light and you can press 46+ more buttons in a row and do a thing, wow, neat. Nice. I'm glad.

-This isn't a fun for basically anyone but who is on offense..



That hit confirm to that 4 hit combo that did damage was really good. I enjoyed that, let us keep fighting now because the 2 moments it took for that are over and I get to come against you. Oki time.

-This makes prediction moments fun to experience and doesn't take away from the core of the fighter. The defender is punished, the offender is rewarded, and they both get to keep doing what these game are about. !!FIGHTING!!



Now I am certain there are some lab rats who will fight to their grave about how much they love training mode and ok. Cool. But I guarantee you are the minority. That isn't what this is about. There is something wrong with you.(maybe) (lol) (but we love you anyways) But the average populace fluffing hates it. Hates. It isn't fun to play the same 5-10 seconds of a game by yourself. If you think playing the same game with yourself for the same 5-10 seconds hours on end is fun, well.....go build a brick wall or something. You'll get the same experience.

Having a single character would be so much better, so much more fun. For both sides. You have to figure out your characters' weakness, while your opponent gets to do the same, and instead of just relying on a DP from another character, you would actually have to play around what your character does. Also your opponent would be able to come back more because they could learn their matchup and be able to respond. Thus you would learn their response to that, and it could all be done without 5000x other options. WOW FIGHTING GAME FUN BUT YOU CAN DO THAT WITH TEAMS!!

This is all about time.

Teams take that and make it exponentially more extravagant. Especially in this game, because your assist can be anything forever. This only benefits the aggressor. Yeah sure, there will be meta. But what about that new player trying to learn a fighting game that is attracted by a few things that stand out? They will just stop. Forever. It will destroy them, because, even if they put in a couple HUNDRED hours, they will realize that the possibilities going on here are far too much for someone to actually take on beyond an individual who has nothing to do but devote their everything to a game. All because assists cover everything.




What does this do in a match, though? Isn't this good? I love being safe on someone.

Yeah, it is good. Really good. You're doing what the game rewards. But what about the defender? They have to lab, or learn through experience, that assist, that character.

No one wants to learn every combination of every assist for every character with them all together in a game. People want to fight. They want to play, they want to learn, they want to get good. Everyone wants this. The thing is, they all want it in a timely manner.

What does that mean for the individual? Everyone differs. Some have more time to play, some have less. Why should this be a gatekeeping aspect for a game?

oH bUT The InfINITE proTECCCCCCCCC!!!!

Stop. No.

No actual burst. No infinite protection. These things rely on the aggressor making mistakes, not the defender knowing when they need to respond.

There is no defend response. And god do I love this game, but holy fluff the lack of actual active defensive response really hurts. Hurts. Hurts. Hurts.

It is too late in the game for this to be fixed (or is it?!) but that would take a revamp.

BUT ANYWAYS
I am diverting from my point. Response aside, all this aside. If this were a 1v1 no teams game, it would work on so many more levels.



Well, with the amount of possible outcomes a single assist can provide, in reference to the amount of safe situations a dragon punch in the middle of a super unsafe blockstring can give to the aggressor basically, this is unfair for someone trying to learn the game. Almost on a level that is impossible to gauge. The experienced can be attacked just as much as the noob. Of course, the noob will 1000% just die. The experienced will fight someone they never have and see such a freeform nonsense assist frametrap reset move, that it is almost inevitably impossible to compete against in a tournament sense. Not because one person is actually better than the other, but because one person brought something new to the table that the other has not seen, and it becomes problematic.



I cannot continue to run through this. I'm going to kill myself. I love you all, and maybe no one reads this. Goodnight.

[1.2M | Missingno.]

Because the game's heavily based on Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

Assists are super rad, plenty of players love all the possibilities they add to the table. It's the main thing that put MvC on the map, and there's a reason why plenty of other fighting games have borrowed the idea since. And everything you've said about assists just making anything automatically safe, uh, no, what? Have you never seen a double snap before?

As for execution, I'll be the first to say I'm kinda guilty of being too lazy to spend a lot of time in training mode myself, every time I tell myself I'll hit the lab tomorrow, tomorrow never comes and I just keep clicking Quick Match. But that's why I can also tell you firsthand that you don't need to spend a ton of time in training mode to get by, standard BnBs are really not hard and they get the job done. Even I can do them.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that there's no defensive options either. PBGC is incredibly powerful in this game, many teams have access to safe reversals with enough meter via DHC, and I think a lot of players are still sleeping on Alpha Counter. And the whole point of the game's heavy emphasis on resets is so that the attacker has to take additional risks during a combo and the defender cannot just sit there and wait, they must remain active and ready to block/tech the reset.

If you just don't like this stuff, that's a totally fair opinion to have, but then you're just going to have to accept that Skullgirls is not for you. You don't have to act like your opinions must be universal and the whole world needs to share them.

[Just_Matt]

...Samurai Shodown V Special is out for like 5 bucks on Steam, with rollback netcode too. You can just get that if you're not into hyperfighters - MvS, Blazblue and that sort of stuff, which SG was built upon.

[Alice]

teams add a level of complexity to the game that solo games will never have. Skullgirls is a very complicated game with fast neutral and assists are a huge part of that. They don't allow players to "play more poorly" just because they open up more offensive options. I love the way my characters interact with each other and I find the team dynamics much more engaging than other games. Assists, while low risk, also carry a huge consequence if both the point and assist characters get hit. Perhaps they have more counter play than you think?

Skullgirls combos are really not long in general. Are you familiar with resets? Skullgirls has a lot of very fast resets intentionally so that the player getting hit always has to be aware. Yes this takes time in training mode, but training mode only helps with the problems you find in vs. mode.

I'm going to be perfectly honest, it seems you are very unfamiliar with the mechanics of SG. This game has a ton of universal defensive options and has a wider variety of "meta" play styles than basically every other game. It seems you're frustraded with the speed/style of SG specifically. Maybe a slower game would be more your style? To me, nothing you listed seemed bad and I'm reletivly new to this game.

[Regil0010]

I've got you covered, why don't you play Samsho? It's the very definition of easy, you die in 2 hits and you don't really need to lab anything at all.
the only drawback is that after a couple of matches you'd rather rest your balls on a bear trap for how soporific it is.

[The Vahzah Guy]

600 hours, playing since day one, and you not like assist, teams and combos? Then why are you playing this game?
Also, what wrong about doin some lab every once in a while? If you don't have any kind of patience to do some practice, then it's your problem. People hit the practice button cuz they want to get better at the game, they want to the moves, their attacks propierties, their mix ups, they want to know what the character can do. This is not just press buttons, is know what are you able to do when you hit. And big news for you, you can learn how to defend yourself also in practice mode! (seriously, just push the record buttom and learn how to block and tech, for cry and loud).
In the team department, I really hope that you know that this game gives you the option to not play with a team, and that you can easily take multiple enemies at once if you hit both characters at the same time (I just can't understand how you can even think that assist are totally safe).

For what I can tell, you haven't learn to play this game at all, and just want to complain about what you can't do cuz of course is better to blame the game that learn the game.

[Noodl]

Originally posted by The Vahzah Guy:

600 hours, playing since day one, and you not like assist, teams and combos? Then why are you playing this game?
Also, what wrong about doin some lab every once in a while? If you don't have any kind of patience to do some practice, then it's your problem. People hit the practice button cuz they want to get better at the game, they want to the moves, their attacks propierties, their mix ups, they want to know what the character can do. This is not just press buttons, is know what are you able to do when you hit. And big news for you, you can learn how to defend yourself also in practice mode! (seriously, just push the record buttom and learn how to block and tech, for cry and loud).
In the team department, I really hope that you know that this game gives you the option to not play with a team, and that you can easily take multiple enemies at once if you hit both characters at the same time (I just can't understand how you can even think that assist are totally safe).

For what I can tell, you haven't learn to play this game at all, and just want to complain about what you can't do cuz of course is better to blame the game that learn the game.

Eh, I guess I was poor in my execution of my explanation. I feel like this is a big turn off for newer players. You think I don't use a team and know combos? lol. Did I enjoy learning it, nah, but I did it because I love the art style and characters. Namely: Peacock and BB, I dabble in some Parasol, Beo, and Squiggs, but I believe my main point was that it isn't really fun to have to go through the hours and hours of learning it requires to actually play this game on a fun level. I have been saving this rant for years and such as well, so bad format. lmfao

I do love this game, I do, and I will never stop playing it. But I have never agreed with teams or crazy combos. I suck it up and play, but I also feel that it really hurts the playerbase and what it could be. Most of the people who play either 1. are MVC vets or 2. have sucked it up and kept going because they like the flavor. Most quit, and being as this game still has a playerbase as large as it does after as long as it has been out, I feel that attributes a lot to the flavor and art of the game, and probably less than the combo and team systems. While I do agree that that is the reason some play to this day, and I am willing to admit I am wrong, those are just my thoughts, lol.

/shrug

[Zelph]

Originally posted by noodl:

Originally posted by The Vahzah Guy:

600 hours, playing since day one, and you not like assist, teams and combos? Then why are you playing this game?
Also, what wrong about doin some lab every once in a while? If you don't have any kind of patience to do some practice, then it's your problem. People hit the practice button cuz they want to get better at the game, they want to the moves, their attacks propierties, their mix ups, they want to know what the character can do. This is not just press buttons, is know what are you able to do when you hit. And big news for you, you can learn how to defend yourself also in practice mode! (seriously, just push the record buttom and learn how to block and tech, for cry and loud).
In the team department, I really hope that you know that this game gives you the option to not play with a team, and that you can easily take multiple enemies at once if you hit both characters at the same time (I just can't understand how you can even think that assist are totally safe).

For what I can tell, you haven't learn to play this game at all, and just want to complain about what you can't do cuz of course is better to blame the game that learn the game.

Eh, I guess I was poor in my execution of my explanation. I feel like this is a big turn off for newer players. You think I don't use a team and know combos? lol. Did I enjoy learning it, nah, but I did it because I love the art style and characters. Namely: Peacock and BB, I dabble in some Parasol, Beo, and Squiggs, but I believe my main point was that it isn't really fun to have to go through the hours and hours of learning it requires to actually play this game on a fun level. I have been saving this rant for years and such as well, so bad format. lmfao

I do love this game, I do, and I will never stop playing it. But I have never agreed with teams or crazy combos. I suck it up and play, but I also feel that it really hurts the playerbase and what it could be. Most of the people who play either 1. are MVC vets or 2. have sucked it up and kept going because they like the flavor. Most quit, and being as this game still has a playerbase as large as it does after as long as it has been out, I feel that attributes a lot to the flavor and art of the game, and probably less than the combo and team systems. While I do agree that that is the reason some play to this day, and I am willing to admit I am wrong, those are just my thoughts, lol.

/shrug

If you don't like teams or combos, then anime fighters might just not be for you.

And no, most people don't have what it takes for fighting games. Look at the player base for anything that isn't a huge name like tekken, street fighter or dragon ball. Usually in the triple digits at most. As it turns out, most people just don't like losing and can't be bothered to practice to get better. Combos in this are easy to do, and don't really take much learning. ALL fighters take a lot of time and patience to learn, that is far and away not exclusive to skullgirls.

[1.2M | Missingno.]

As I said, it's what the game is, and it's not even close to being the only such game that does this. MvC2 was huge in its day, UMvC3 was huge in its day, DBFZ is huge today, clearly there's an audience for it.

The fact that a plucky little indie with no big publisher backing still has a scene at all 8 years later, outliving many of those other big publisher games, including both UMvC3 and MvCi, means that plenty of people do love this game the way it is.

I think it's great that we have such a wide variety of games in the FGC that can cater to all sorts of tastes. If you don't like Mahvel or games based on Mahvel, you've got plenty of other options to choose from! You go enjoy those other games and we'll enjoy ours.

[Noodl]

Originally posted by Zelph:

Originally posted by noodl:

Eh, I guess I was poor in my execution of my explanation. I feel like this is a big turn off for newer players. You think I don't use a team and know combos? lol. Did I enjoy learning it, nah, but I did it because I love the art style and characters. Namely: Peacock and BB, I dabble in some Parasol, Beo, and Squiggs, but I believe my main point was that it isn't really fun to have to go through the hours and hours of learning it requires to actually play this game on a fun level. I have been saving this rant for years and such as well, so bad format. lmfao

I do love this game, I do, and I will never stop playing it. But I have never agreed with teams or crazy combos. I suck it up and play, but I also feel that it really hurts the playerbase and what it could be. Most of the people who play either 1. are MVC vets or 2. have sucked it up and kept going because they like the flavor. Most quit, and being as this game still has a playerbase as large as it does after as long as it has been out, I feel that attributes a lot to the flavor and art of the game, and probably less than the combo and team systems. While I do agree that that is the reason some play to this day, and I am willing to admit I am wrong, those are just my thoughts, lol.

/shrug

If you don't like teams or combos, then anime fighters might just not be for you.

And no, most people don't have what it takes for fighting games. Look at the player base for anything that isn't a huge name like tekken, street fighter or dragon ball. Usually in the triple digits at most. As it turns out, most people just don't like losing and can't be bothered to practice to get better. Combos in this are easy to do, and don't really take much learning. ALL fighters take a lot of time and patience to learn, that is far and away not exclusive to skullgirls.

Yeah I know it isn't exclusive. I do not disagree. And fighters are hard for new players, yes. Sigh. I suppose I am just an angry because I want more people to get involved.
I would argue that combos are not simple to do, it did take me quite a while to learn, but this game definitely is a hell of a lot more simple to execute than other fighters in terms of such. (looking at anything with a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 1 frame link)

I suppose I am just too old to be bothered for training, and I play fighting games to fight. Sigh. I miss arcades.

THOUGH
I do love the attention this game is getting now because of EVO, and the fresh meat is oh-so-fun to see. I just know that a lot of them are going to vanish. Sigh. Please stop ragequitting.

[DuckieMcduck]

Originally posted by noodl:

I cannot continue to run through this. I'm going to kill myself. I love you all, and maybe no one reads this. Goodnight.

Uhhh...

[Adrian-the-Wallachian]

I love labbing out combos in training mode, so I legit think you're nuts when you say that nobody likes labbing and long combos. Cool looking, hour-long combos are a huge part of team-based games, all the while still being fair, since anyone can potentially do one (if they are not lazy, of course).

[Zelph]

Originally posted by noodl:

Originally posted by Zelph:

If you don't like teams or combos, then anime fighters might just not be for you.

And no, most people don't have what it takes for fighting games. Look at the player base for anything that isn't a huge name like tekken, street fighter or dragon ball. Usually in the triple digits at most. As it turns out, most people just don't like losing and can't be bothered to practice to get better. Combos in this are easy to do, and don't really take much learning. ALL fighters take a lot of time and patience to learn, that is far and away not exclusive to skullgirls.

Yeah I know it isn't exclusive. I do not disagree. And fighters are hard for new players, yes. Sigh. I suppose I am just an angry because I want more people to get involved.
I would argue that combos are not simple to do, it did take me quite a while to learn, but this game definitely is a hell of a lot more simple to execute than other fighters in terms of such. (looking at anything with a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 1 frame link)

I suppose I am just too old to be bothered for training, and I play fighting games to fight. Sigh. I miss arcades.

THOUGH
I do love the attention this game is getting now because of EVO, and the fresh meat is oh-so-fun to see. I just know that a lot of them are going to vanish. Sigh. Please stop ragequitting.

You can also get better without much, if any training mode. I've mashed my face against quickplay a ton, even doing semi decently against the top players(If I actually practiced more then once every few months I might actually be able to take a round...). Its just a matter of catching your opponents off guard and not falling in to the same habits. And for reference, I have less then 400 hours in the game still, but nearly 300 of that is just straight quickplay or playing with people who have added me.