SE2: Early access? A discussion.

[Ronin Planetary Industries]

We've yet to receive any information on early access. Rumor has it that the full game won't be available in early access. The rumor is that we'll have limited creative mode... with no planets.

I have mixed feelings about early access for SE2. I would not want to repeat the fumbling around in the early access around SE1. It was a lot of raging, changes, etc. Also, with what "Early Access" has become in the industry over the last 10 years... it leaves much to be desired.

I'd be fine with early access being free access to anyone who has purchased SE1. If there are limitations, incomplete features, etc... that would be perfectly fine since no money has changed hands. Paying for early access... that's a non-starter.

Thoughts and feelings?

[Nemui]

Agreed. If you're paying for early access, and you don't get full access to the game at it's current build, then that's the same as paying for a demo. And paying for a demo would be insane. And considering that a full release could take decades, this would lead to people losing interest in it all together.

It would be better to not give access to anyone until it's ready for a full release in my opinion.
Edit: Or give early access to people who pre purchase it for 2 weeks before the full release.

[Dan2D3D]

Hi Ronin,
I bought SE after a free weekend when the price dropped to $5 for a few days, it was cheap because only very small world with no more than 7 asteroids creative mode where there was an invisible wall around it / end of the world very close.

SE2 ALPHA may be the same so $5 or $10 if no planets in small asteroid world ;)

[Fives5555]

No point in making my mind up until Thursday. I'll wait till then to decide. Definitely a lot of hopium circling around me. You look at KSP 2's status, you look at Starbase's status, and you hope SE 2 does not turn into them. Shell-less husks of games with no future. Even looking at ME, Keen needs to get this right. And if that means more time to polish, I can wait.

[jhughes]

There is certainly no need to speculate at all before the 19th. After they do the stream, we can see what might be left to speculate about.

[dhitch89]

Originally posted by Nemui:

Agreed. If you're paying for early access, and you don't get full access to the game at it's current build, then that's the same as paying for a demo. And paying for a demo would be insane.

Thing is, in your example, a demo and the full release are two separate purchases (which as you said, is insane).

Paying for EA is ultimately just one: you get the game early and keep it forever, enjoying increasing content over a long period for a low-ish price, compared to what it might cost later. Which is hardly much different from how many games are bought at a short-term loss for a long-term gain - the only real difference is that for EA, the long-term gain is more spread-out.

[Pembroke]

Originally posted by Ronin Planetary Industries:

I have mixed feelings about early access for SE2.

Well, let's think of it rationally:

#1: Keen chooses to release SE2 to Early Access with limited features, continuing to develop it AND you choose to purchase it immediately
#2: Keen chooses to release SE2 to Early Access with limited features, continuing to develop it AND you choose to wait for more functionality before purchasing it
#3: Keen chooses to not release SE2 to Early Access yet, continuing to develop it. You can't purchase it yet so you don't need to make any choice.

From your point-of-view #2 and #3 are identical. Both result in you not playing any early access versions with limited functionality.

Thus, if you don't want to play any limited functionality versions, then you have a clear strategy that is entirely in your power to implement regardless of what Keen does: If they release an Early Access version then simply don't purchase it until it has the features you deem sufficient.

[Specialagent Mulder]

Originally posted by Ronin Planetary Industries:

We've yet to receive any information on early access. Rumor has it that the full game won't be available in early access. The rumor is that we'll have limited creative mode... with no planets.

I have mixed feelings about early access for SE2. I would not want to repeat the fumbling around in the early access around SE1. It was a lot of raging, changes, etc. Also, with what "Early Access" has become in the industry over the last 10 years... it leaves much to be desired.

I'd be fine with early access being free access to anyone who has purchased SE1. If there are limitations, incomplete features, etc... that would be perfectly fine since no money has changed hands. Paying for early access... that's a non-starter.

Thoughts and feelings?

=====================================================================

About SE2....it's strange, instead of improving SE1 and doing everything the way players want, NO, SE1 is thrown away and tinkered with an SE2, .....spending new money on old things again , that's how things are going.... MONEY MONEY MONEY, the needs of the players or the fun of the game have not been important for years now... The only chance to save Space Engineers and make them better than equivalent competing products is a to develop a completely new space engineers WITHOUT DEVELOPER COMPANIES. If many fans get together and all wishes and ideas are taken into account, then it will be the best game of the year, the best Space Engineers of the last 20 years... but yes, I'll be quiet before my post is blocked again

[Kreeg]

Originally posted by Specialagent Mulder:

Originally posted by Ronin Planetary Industries:

We've yet to receive any information on early access. Rumor has it that the full game won't be available in early access. The rumor is that we'll have limited creative mode... with no planets.

I have mixed feelings about early access for SE2. I would not want to repeat the fumbling around in the early access around SE1. It was a lot of raging, changes, etc. Also, with what "Early Access" has become in the industry over the last 10 years... it leaves much to be desired.

I'd be fine with early access being free access to anyone who has purchased SE1. If there are limitations, incomplete features, etc... that would be perfectly fine since no money has changed hands. Paying for early access... that's a non-starter.

Thoughts and feelings?

=====================================================================

About SE2....it's strange, instead of improving SE1 and doing everything the way players want, NO, SE1 is thrown away and tinkered with an SE2, .....spending new money on old things again , that's how things are going.... MONEY MONEY MONEY, the needs of the players or the fun of the game have not been important for years now... The only chance to save Space Engineers and make them better than equivalent competing products is a to develop a completely new space engineers WITHOUT DEVELOPER COMPANIES. If many fans get together and all wishes and ideas are taken into account, then it will be the best game of the year, the best Space Engineers of the last 20 years... but yes, I'll be quiet before my post is blocked again

User 1 wants X to be "Thing 1", User 2 wants X to be "Thing 2", these are exclusive concepts.
To use all ideas, means these two which are physically impossible to exist at the same time... can't be both done, thus selective process.

If no company develops a title, that means it has skilled users and funds to make it from where? It can't gather funds, it can't keep people on track, it can't license or make things past a committe and prayers.

Which doesn't actually work, as no direction and no solid workflow, means nothing gets done and its a constant cycle of stopping & replacing itself.

Keen has also done entire updates dedicated to fan requests, have a support system,and various interactions -- You're a strange one.

[Specialagent Mulder]

Originally posted by Kreeg:

Originally posted by Specialagent Mulder:

=====================================================================

About SE2....it's strange, instead of improving SE1 and doing everything the way players want, NO, SE1 is thrown away and tinkered with an SE2, .....spending new money on old things again , that's how things are going.... MONEY MONEY MONEY, the needs of the players or the fun of the game have not been important for years now... The only chance to save Space Engineers and make them better than equivalent competing products is a to develop a completely new space engineers WITHOUT DEVELOPER COMPANIES. If many fans get together and all wishes and ideas are taken into account, then it will be the best game of the year, the best Space Engineers of the last 20 years... but yes, I'll be quiet before my post is blocked again

User 1 wants X to be "Thing 1", User 2 wants X to be "Thing 2", these are exclusive concepts.
To use all ideas, means these two which are physically impossible to exist at the same time... can't be both done, thus selective process.

If no company develops a title, that means it has skilled users and funds to make it from where? It can't gather funds, it can't keep people on track, it can't license or make things past a committe and prayers.

Which doesn't actually work, as no direction and no solid workflow, means nothing gets done and its a constant cycle of stopping & replacing itself.

Keen has also done entire updates dedicated to fan requests, have a support system,and various interactions -- You're a strange one.

====================================================================

Your post makes no logical sense.....
Why am I a strange person when I bring up creative ideas and changes?

And to question your point of view...If everything is going so great at Keen Software House, then WHY are there so many problems that different people form their own opinions about?
,
And that was exactly my answer, if fans had taken the project into their hands, many things would have turned out much more positively and many of the current problems wouldn't have existed in the first place...

[dhitch89]

Originally posted by Specialagent Mulder:

And that was exactly my answer, if fans had taken the project into their hands, many things would have turned out much more positively and many of the current problems wouldn't have existed in the first place...

Thing is, how/why would the fans - who likely have no degree in game making aspects as a whole (if at all) - objectively be better at this than actual devs?

Other than "Because they would be", I mean.

[Specialagent Mulder]

Originally posted by dhitch89:

Originally posted by Specialagent Mulder:

And that was exactly my answer, if fans had taken the project into their hands, many things would have turned out much more positively and many of the current problems wouldn't have existed in the first place...

Thing is, how/why would the fans - who likely have no degree in game making aspects as a whole (if at all) - objectively be better at this than actual devs?

Other than "Because they would be", I mean.

==============================================================

That's just a matter of opinion, i.e. pure speculation (on your part). Maybe there are some talented fans among fans who could do something better than developers - or maybe not. Nevertheless, I think it's good that you are pursuing this line of thought. I thought similarly in the previous post that fans would probably (my opinion) implement certain things to keep Space Engineers fun and make the game more attractive overall. One of the problems that many developers have (generally speaking, not a reference to Keen Software) is that there are limits to the budget and certain deadlines prevent further development from the outset. A fan project is structured completely differently, money doesn't play a role because something like that can be handled and financed completely differently. The most important thing, however, is that the players again have the feeling that the game is moving forward, that wishes, changes and ideas are being taken into account.

I have already pointed out these improvements in another post. Of course there are always people who have different opinions and that should be respected. However, it is incomprehensible to me why there has been so much hostility lately when you want to use new options for certain games.... sensible communication and achieving goals together would make much more sense for both sides, the fans and the Game manufacturer...or not?

I played Space Engineers for years (I really liked this game), but the game was now overtaken by the competition, and further development was slow or even non-existent (according to many fans). In this context, like many others, I have advocated that changes need to be made. However, the fact that discussions always tend to be broken off or blocked, degenerate into insults or even cause a lack of understanding, in the worst case even not wanting to be understood at all, leaves me at a loss to be honest.
(This doesn't apply to you, but generally speaking)

[Capt Fuzzy]

Now-a-days, I take 'early access' with a grain of salt, that being said, some developers actually do learn from their mistakes.
KSH strikes me as one of those developers.
Don't ask me why, I can't put anything tangible behind that statement, it's more of a 'gut-feeling' at this point.
I remember much of the hassles in the early days of Space Engineers, and some of it was indeed, a real turn-off, but I, as did many others, stuck with it and have reaped the eventual rewards.
My advice to anyone expecting a polished game in early access needs to re-evaluate how they see reality. It's called 'early access' for a reason.
'Early access' by definition implies that it won't quite be a completed/polished game, so anyone expecting a completed/polished game WILL be disappointed, that's a given.
Early access is akin to beta testing in that it's a way to test various features, locate early bugs and hopefully, fix those bugs before the final release date.
Those that understand this fact, will be able to 'roll with the punches' and still find ways to enjoy the game, despite it's somewhat incomplete state at the time.., those that don't will complain incessantly about the condition of a game that doesn't quite meet their expectations due to it not being completed.
Welcome to the wonderful world of 'Early Access', enjoy!!

[Malware]

If you're not excited about what a game is _when you pay for it,_ don't buy it. Wait until it actually have the features you want.

As for updating SE1 instead... that's simply not possible. It's based on too old technology, so Keen did what they _had_ to do... wrote a new engine with modern technology. This is a very costly project, so _of course_ they make a totally new game. It's a no-brainer.

Again. If SE2's first release really is creative only, and that doesn't interest you, WAIT.

[Pembroke]

Originally posted by Specialagent Mulder:

if fans had taken the project into their hands, many things would have turned out much more positively

So, do it then. There's no rule against creating a new game. If you don't have the talent, no problem, then be the manager of that fan project and find the people who do and bring them together.

There are no free lunches. If you want something, then you either pay money to someone to do it, or you pay it with work you offer, whether it's DIY or a community project.

What you will never get is "I want someone else to do this thing I want, and then to give it to me for free". That is not going to happen. All suggestions that boil down to this kind of demand, are not meaningful suggestions.

[Ronin Planetary Industries]

Originally posted by Malware:

If you're not excited about what a game is _when you pay for it,_ don't buy it. Wait until it actually have the features you want.

As for updating SE1 instead... that's simply not possible. It's based on too old technology, so Keen did what they _had_ to do... wrote a new engine with modern technology. This is a very costly project, so _of course_ they make a totally new game. It's a no-brainer.

Again. If SE2's first release really is creative only, and that doesn't interest you, WAIT.

Mal??? You're back? Sign any NDAs recently? :)