Is it even possible to build a small-grid fighter ship?

[vindicar]

Because from all my attempts, it will either:
* be made of wet paper because of not enough armor coverage:
* have so much armor it won't even budge.
* will be the size of a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Death Star by the time you balance the previous two points.

Ion engines are the worst offenders because of the sheer amount of not-armored space they leave on the ship. And before you suggest hydrogen ones - sure, let's complicate the ship even more with fragile ducting and fuel efficiency...

Oh, and I take it that recent changes make decoys near-worthless if mounted on the ship because of block count.

So do I have build a Death Star every time, or can I get away with something more sensible?

[Dan2D3D]

Hi, I'll say it depends on the Premade PVP world, I mean we go MP, me and my friends, to play in premade PVP world with rules to do a cool match / Dogfight.

+
I can share what I did to be able to destroy a Pirate station alone with minimum of damages done on the ship;


For small block Fighter --> Build a 2 ships in 1 :

1 - A smaller / Tiny complete ship in center, made with heavy armor and all the needed blocks for a small ship to fly.

2 - Build a bigger ship with light armor around the Tiny ship, so a second complete ship with all the needed blocks for a ship to fly, add the weapons on the second skin and temp arms with Decoys on those so you can lose those "temp arm" during combat.
-> Those temp Decoys arms can be build with projector before going into battle.

3 - It needs at least 6 turrets on a small ship to be able to destroy a Pirate station alone.

=

You should always be able to return home after a combat, at least with the Tiny ship in center if the first layer is completely destoyed.

[Dan2D3D]

Here is a screenshot of my 2 in 1 :

It's my space "tank" :)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1458755797

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Dan2D3D:

Here is a screenshot of my 2 in 1 :

It's my space "tank" :)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1458755797

Nice! Love the details and colors! Have you (like many of us) been going through your designs and updating them with new stuff? I really like the look of the new Ion engines.

Your design just screams for a pair of railguns hard-mounted facing forward. To get in those first few shots to soften up the other guy.

[Dan2D3D]

@Darkaiser

No, well just my small block Fire Raptor got the new Railgun so far and still working on it to update the WS item,,,
but I will surely upgrade more soon :)

+ I think we can setup turrets to shoot specific blocks now, so it should be easier to destroy a Pirate station alone using 6 turrets on a small ship.

Edit
Sorry corrections made.

[vindicar]

Hm, so basically sometehing vulnerable that can fly fast and hit hard, and then a durable core that can limp out of the combat?

And to clarify, I'm trying to deal with AI ships. More than one turret firign at once, and I'm full of holes, armor or no armor. I do attempt flybys, but that requires a lot of engines unless I want to spend ten minutes accelerating/decelerating.

[ShadedMJ]

Most of my fighters are small grid.

Suggestion to put the cockpit at the _back_ of the fighter. I see a lot of fighters with the cockpit at the front and that's one of the things that gets targeted first.

Decoys are your friend and will take the hit for you,

[Dan2D3D]

I just tested setting turrets to target weapons only and not bad so far, well still have to test with the Moon SPRT station or the space one.

They shoot at weapons first even placing a SPRT Reactor closer, well in front :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2751459966
So that is a new thing to take advantage of :)


Edit
I also tested Gatling turrets and they destroy the enemy turrets very fast :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2751457593

[Karmaterrorᵁᴷ]

Speed is the easiest solution, as mentioned you can dodge turret fire with a good handling craft. If you can maake an efficient decoy printer on small grid (hard because of welder size/cargo space for components) but they can screen you quite well.

Sometimes iv used just detachable decoys, roll and release to throw them out. If they are fast enough turrets wont keep up with them either... but they will try while you do your attack run with impunity. Add a player torpedo of some sort and that one screened run can be well worth it :)

[Darkaiser]

Originally posted by Dan2D3D:

I just tested setting turrets to target weapons only and not bad so far, well still have to test with the Moon SPRT station or the space one.

They shoot at weapons first even palcing a SPRT Reactor closer, well in front :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2751459966
So that is a new thing to take advantage of :)


Edit
I also tested Gatling turrets and they destroy the enemy turrets very fast :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2751457593

This is very encouraging! I've always hated the fact that trying to capture a ship often meant blasting away so much and taking so much damage that it didn't seem worth the effort.

Now, you can take out the enemy's weapons and assess the situation. Maybe take out just enough thrusters to bring it down rather than having it crash and go boom.

[vindicar]

Hmm, I was building for stationary weapons. Using AI turrets instead might be an option.

[Dan2D3D]

It's cool challenge to find the good setup on a small ship Fighter, well should be fine over 6 turrets.

__

+ Good to know about controller block + AI enabled on rotor turrets :

-> Use only one per ship cause AI + controller was reported giving problems when more than one and should get better later if they update.

-> They shoot everything in their way even friendly.

[dot]

Originally posted by vindicar:

Hm, so basically sometehing vulnerable that can fly fast and hit hard, and then a durable core that can limp out of the combat?

And to clarify, I'm trying to deal with AI ships. More than one turret firign at once, and I'm full of holes, armor or no armor. I do attempt flybys, but that requires a lot of engines unless I want to spend ten minutes accelerating/decelerating.

I dont get your logic: are you oblivious to modern technology (see f22, abrahms tanks or apache helicopters) and see how "many punches" any of them can take: seriously ONE, then it is OVER for all of them. That is called "reality". And this carries over to a physics-pseudo-realistic sandbox game like space engineers.

Now it is on you to OUTSMART the enemy. Thinking "put much wall, put strongest gun, win" would be middle ages-tech. We are waaaayy way beyond that.

You can do it! Launch multiple small drones from a little bit bigger small-grid mothership that will have some firepower, but the drones will also shoot and absorb most focus at first.
or do it with finesse if you can build a good fighter AND you have skill. AND YOUR piloting skill is REALLY important here!
Good Luck! :)

[vindicar]

Hmm, a quick question: are armor panels worth using at all? They look very thin, so I'd think they are only good to place where anything thicker will get in the way of stationary weapons/engine exhaust...

[dot]

I would say: depends on the situation.

I just build a tank so I can take down some territory defensive platforms (MES mod). And since they are not yet updated for warfare 2 update they mostly have chaingun turrets. And as long as you dont get hit by missles you can take a lot of hits before a chaingun turret (or multiple) will penetrate the heavy armor. And yes, I put 2-3 layers in front so I am able to just drive into fire of 4-6 turrets and take them out with my two assault turrets.

[vindicar]

TL;DR: fun > realism. Having to design a complex ship without being able to test simple solutions at all != fun.

Originally posted by dot:

That is called "reality". And this carries over to a physics-pseudo-realistic sandbox game like space engineers.

There is also this little thing called "learning curve", which most fun games seem to have.
As in, simple starter solutions should have their uses. Not necessarily stomping everything, but it really ought to be enough to deal with a lone SPRT cargo freighter. I'm not looking to build a fleeet-killer or a PvP death machine, I'm trying to build literally anything that can disable a simple AI-driven armed target and get home in one piece!

And so far many solutions I've seen in this thread are simply too maintenance-intensive. Detachable decoys? Replacing them is gonna be a pain, since projectors won't work, and they limit you to a very, very short timespan before you are forced to retreat. Front-line combat drone printing? Jeez, I do love messing around with programming blocks, but coding a drone swarm is way above the timespan I'm willing to sink into the game. So if that's what required to take on anything at all... I might as well go back to minecraft.