Diagonal Thruster

[big_blue_4101]

This is something that SE has needed for a long time. A thruster that you can put on your ship at a 45* angle. Giving you the ability of pushing in two directions at once. Sadly, i don't have any modding experience, so i'm just throwing this idea out there so that someone can tackle it.
Please let me know what you all think and how much you'd like to see this in-game.

[RoofCat]

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Nope. Wrong.

Because in SE, if two thrusters can contribute more than they should to moving in a direction, then you get MORE thrust for a given number of thrusters.

If you have one thruster left/right/up/down, then you get one thruster's worth of push.
With 4 at a 45 degree angle you get MORE than one thruster's worth of push per side, and those thrusters also contribute to the other 3 directions.

you are getting something for nothing.

and i notice you STILL have not admitted to being wrong about all this.

I have realized you can't do intermediate math and physics exercise so I have given up trying to explain why what you tell is actually using more for less. I will leave that to your teachers. Can't help everyone, I'm fine with that.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by RoofCat:

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Nope. Wrong.

Because in SE, if two thrusters can contribute more than they should to moving in a direction, then you get MORE thrust for a given number of thrusters.

If you have one thruster left/right/up/down, then you get one thruster's worth of push.
With 4 at a 45 degree angle you get MORE than one thruster's worth of push per side, and those thrusters also contribute to the other 3 directions.

you are getting something for nothing.

and i notice you STILL have not admitted to being wrong about all this.

I have realized you can't do intermediate math and physics exercise so I have given up trying to explain why what you tell is actually using more for less. I will leave that to your teachers. Can't help everyone, I'm fine with that.

You still get more thrust. As demonstrated.
In real life, you don't.
This is not real life.
Notice how you have yet to accept this?

Yes or no, if you tilt to 45 degrees, do you get more than one unit of thrust?

Notice how you had to add the fuel consumption to the story in order to appear not to be wrong?
Notice how if you rotate to 45 degrees, you can get more thrust in every direction, for no extra parts?

Yeah.

Uses more fuel? So what?
you are getting something for nothing.

and i notice you STILL have not admitted to being wrong about all this.

[RoofCat]

This is pretty much real life for this aspect of game. And you would get extra thrust in real life as well. That's what you can't follow. The Force and cos() thing. My mistake was simplifying it to 50% while in fact at 45° you have 70%. And I've confirmed it a day ago already, not sure how did you miss it. Maybe too obsessed with the arguing, no idea.

So you have a bit more in joint direction, but you actually use a lot more to achieve that due to significantly lower thrust efficiency. That's why you can't have more with less. It's just not possible due to how physics and math work. If you intentionally waste some power one thruster fighting another working at the same time, you can't have more in total for given number of thrusters working. No matter the number of those thrusters. The law of conservation of energy. One thruster of yours fights the other one. It just can't be best result. Simply designing your ship properly will have much better results without any waste.

you are trying to make
10-3 >= 10

It's just not possible. Neither in reality nor game. You think you have some free energy in game, but you don't. It's perfectly legit one also in real world. It's not some ingame miracle. And there is math explanation. You just haven't understood yet where it comes from and at which cost in the end. Sure, it is decent option to save your life during battle. Small extra push. What's electricity bill vs your life anyway? But flying that way by default all the time is just stupid. Simply move one of the thrusters in the direction you actually need and it will be much better ship.



Well, I tried. I still think there is a hope you will get the idea. Call me a dreamer, whatever.


... I keep calling thrusters engines, so annoying my English.

[Azirahael]

Yep. You still have more with the same number of thrusters.
As demonstrated.
The same number of thrusters, at 45 degrees gets you more thrust.
Unlike real life.

You lose.
Still.

Originally posted by RoofCat:

Are you sure you are not confusing movement with lift in 3D space and both of your thrusters are same size? Also not sure how do you launch a craft that can just hover.

Plus keep in mind there is "glue" in SE. Actually at least two of them. To keep you in stable ground physics and to avoid microdrift in space. On top of that ore and parts have one glue rules, completed blocks (also vehicles) a different one. If you check engine kN and build the perfect craft right up to limits, you will notice how it doesn't lift for the first few seconds at all. And then somehow does. And how too heavy ships in space will prefer to stay in place and you will have to wiggle them or use drill vibration to start any movement. So must be careful drawing pure visual conclusions here without checking your 3D space position and accurate thrust increase.

Remember?

[RoofCat]

The same number of thrusters at no angle at all gives you more thrust. Try.

[Mr B.]

Just before I blocked him, I saw a comment which invalidates everything.

'You can't have more with less'.

For someone who claims to know about engineering, he's apperantly unaware that's a major focus of it over the centuries.

Through design, making better things that use less, and go for longer.

But hey, he can throw figures about without testing from a computer game that's nothing like real life 😆

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by RoofCat:

The same number of thrusters at no angle at all gives you more thrust. Try.

Except if you actually test it, you are wrong.
Yes or no, if you rotate at 45 degrees, do you, or do you not get more thrust?

You do.
Ergo, you are wrong.
Go test it.
Load up a flyer with rock until it starts to sink, and then tilt back and thrust up and forward.
Oh look, you lift off.

The same trick can also work for side/up/side/down.
Which means that while the total thrust force does not change by rotating 45 degrees, it does allow more than 50% of two thrusters to contribute to any cardinal direction.

And what's even more bizarre, you already accepted this.
So frankly, at this point you look stupid.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

Just before I blocked him, I saw a comment which invalidates everything.

'You can't have more with less'.

For someone who claims to know about engineering, he's apperantly unaware that's a major focus of it over the centuries.

Through design, making better things that use less, and go for longer.

But hey, he can throw figures about without testing from a computer game that's nothing like real life 😆

Doesn't matter what number they throw around. As the saying goes: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

Do you get more lift?
Yes.
So, they're wrong.

The physics of SE is a bit off.

[Mr B.]

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Doesn't matter what number they throw around. As the saying goes: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

Do you get more lift?
Yes.
So, they're wrong.

The physics of SE is a bit off.

Exactly, and it doesn't work with pure math because the game has so many oddities. You HAVE to test it, and then do the math.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Doesn't matter what number they throw around. As the saying goes: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

Do you get more lift?
Yes.
So, they're wrong.

The physics of SE is a bit off.

Exactly, and it doesn't work with pure math because the game has so many oddities. You HAVE to test it, and then do the math.

I must admit to some curiosity as to exactly how much thrust that 2x 45 degree thrusters actually output, in comparison to 2x thrusters pointing the right way.

The number of times i've had to fly my miner out of a tunnel at a silly angle, because i got greedy....

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Doesn't matter what number they throw around. As the saying goes: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

Do you get more lift?
Yes.
So, they're wrong.

The physics of SE is a bit off.

Exactly, and it doesn't work with pure math because the game has so many oddities. You HAVE to test it, and then do the math.

Just out of curiosity, i checked it with real world numbers.

It turns out that SE is not as far off as i thought.
at 45 degrees IRL a thruster contributes 70% of it's thrust to lift.
And so does SE.

So, it turns out that by rotating the thrusters 45 degrees, it ups the thrust by 40%
[70x2]

So, you can get 40% more thrust, just by rotating 45 degrees.

[RoofCat]

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Originally posted by Mr B.:

Exactly, and it doesn't work with pure math because the game has so many oddities. You HAVE to test it, and then do the math.

Just out of curiosity, i checked it with real world numbers.

It turns out that SE is not as far off as i thought.
at 45 degrees IRL a thruster contributes 70% of it's thrust to lift.
And so does SE.

So, it turns out that by rotating the thrusters 45 degrees, it ups the thrust by 40%
[70x2]

So, you can get 40% more thrust, just by rotating 45 degrees.

as I said 2 days ago, just like in real life. There is nothing special about SE. The point is, if you have those engines all at zero angle, you have even more power. Thus it can make sense to use 2 thrust directions during battle escape. But building a ship that flies with diagonal engines all the time is just stupid as instead of 200% power you get just 140% while spending the whole 200% electricity or hydrogen. And yes, I also said this one 2 days ago already. You finally got it.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by RoofCat:

Originally posted by Azirahael:

Just out of curiosity, i checked it with real world numbers.

It turns out that SE is not as far off as i thought.
at 45 degrees IRL a thruster contributes 70% of it's thrust to lift.
And so does SE.

So, it turns out that by rotating the thrusters 45 degrees, it ups the thrust by 40%
[70x2]

So, you can get 40% more thrust, just by rotating 45 degrees.

as I said 2 days ago, just like in real life. There is nothing special about SE. The point is, if you have those engines all at zero angle, you have even more power. Thus it can make sense to use 2 thrust directions during battle escape. But building a ship that flies with diagonal engines all the time is just stupid as instead of 200% power you get just 140% while spending the whole 200% electricity or hydrogen. And yes, I also said this one 2 days ago already. You finally got it.

Nope. Fail.
Because each of those thrusters can contribute to two directions by being pointed at 45.
so, by turning them to 45, you get +40% thrust in each of the cardinal directions.
Or to put it another way, normal ships have +40% thrust at 45 degrees.
By rotating the thrusters, you can get those boosts to the cardinal directions, instead of 45.

"The same number of thrusters at no angle at all gives you more thrust." Wrong.

Remember this?

"Are you sure you are not confusing movement with lift in 3D space and both of your thrusters are same size? Also not sure how do you launch a craft that can just hover."
you still have not accepted that you were wrong about this.

"instead of 200% power you get just 140%" nope. because you are getting thrusters that provide more thrust in the directions that you use up/down/left/right for the same number of thrusters.
Moreover, if you apply the same tilt to the rear, all the side thrusters also apply to the rear.
So, in the case of forward thrust, you have 70% x3= 210% thrust, with not one single extra thruster.
Braking thrust too.
The only sacrifice being, that you lose thrust, comparatively at odd angles.

If you put all those thrusters facing one cardinal direction, sure, they'll be even more efficient. But then, you will not have thrusters pointing any other way.
This gets you more than double the thrust, in all cardinal directions, for no extra cost, other than tilting the ship, and running a script.

You blew it. Accept it, and move on.

[RoofCat]

The difference between us I've already admitted my math mistake two days ago. And then again. While you still fail to see yours over the time and ask me to do something I have honestly done twice already.

This is internet and you are kind of pathetic.

[Azirahael]

I have made no mistake.
And your opinion of me is irrelevant.
And no, i'm not talking about your 50% math mistake.
Nor my surprise at discovering that SE is actually closer to real physics than i originally thought.
My original comment now also applies to reality.

what you have not done, is fess up to misunderstanding what we have all been talking about, all along.

And i am going to keep needling you until you either do, or you flee.