Strange Issue With Sorters & Refineries [Solved]

[Bannor]

I'm just getting into the game, and I've constructed a medium sized base with a landing pad with a built-in connector. The connector leads to a sorter which is set to drain all ores into a large cargo container (LCC). The LCC has 2 conveyor systems leading from it; one to send ice (via a sorter) to my H2/O2 generator, and the other leads to my 4 refineries (each with 4 yield upgrades).
The refinery conveyor system has 4 branches (one to each of the refineries) which are immediately followed by a sorter. Each of the sorters has a whitelist of 2 or 3 ores (different ores for each of the sorters), so that each refinery is 'dedicated' to only refine those particular ores and no others. All sorters have the 'Drain All' setting to *Off*.
The intention is to have only as many refineries active as I have different ores in the LCC. If I'm refining iron ore, *ONLY* the refinery dedicated to that ore should be in operation. If I have iron and nickel ore, then 2 refineries should be active (1 for each ore). This is to try to have the minimum power consumption at any one time - realistically, I'm unlikely to have 4 different ores in the LCC at once.
Ok, after all that - my issue:
When I dump cobalt ore into the LCC, only the cobalt refinery starts operating (which is correct). But when I dump iron ore into the LCC, it is fed to ALL the refineries; they ALL start to refine iron ore. This is NOT what I intend.
I've checked each sorter - they are all set with whitelist, they each have a unique (short) list of ores that they are supposed to allow, all of them have 'Drain All' set to Off. All other settings are identical. I've checked them again and again.
What am I doing wrong?

[aaron]

sorters are sort of inconsistent.. ive tried a complex system like you are trying and it worked but then it would either fill up a refinery so it coudlnt work anymore, or it would fill up an assembler so it stopped working. if they dont have empty space they stop working.

then i found this
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1216126863


it solved all of my problems.

[ouch67]

I haven't had any issues with sorters being inconsistent. But I have found it's incredibly easy to accidentally circumvent them. Part of that is that refineries gobble ore through any path they have access to.

Most of the time this is your destination containers, as all refinery connections lead there. You have to set sorters to filter their output as well or the refineries will likely find a way to take the ore through your destination containers from your input container network or might try separating your input and output networks entirely.

Also each ore has a priority set on them. Iron is set pretty high with Rock being the highest. If you add a bunch of rock to your input and your refineries take a bunch of it you have a short circuit of sorts in your network somewhere.

[Bannor]

Originally posted by ouch67:

I haven't had any issues with sorters being inconsistent. But I have found it's incredibly easy to accidentally circumvent them. Part of that is that refineries gobble ore through any path they have access to.

Most of the time this is your destination containers, as all refinery connections lead there. You have to set sorters to filter their output as well or the refineries will likely find a way to take the ore through your destination containers from your input container network or might try separating your input and output networks entirely.

Also each ore has a priority set on them. Iron is set pretty high with Rock being the highest. If you add a bunch of rock to your input and your refineries take a bunch of it you have a short circuit of sorts in your network somewhere.

My refineries all lead to another LCC - through another sorter set to drain all ingots from the refineries. I don't see how the refineries can get ore though this - nowhere does my chain of production loop back to the beginning of the chain - it ends in another LCC.

[eMYNOCK]

is there a slight chance that your refineries them self are connected to each other?

in doubt... screenshot or blueprint...

[Bannor]

Originally posted by eMYNOCK (=FU= MadHwK):

is there a slight chance that your refineries them self are connected to each other?

in doubt... screenshot or blueprint...

Each refinery is connected to a sorter (incoming), and the outgoing conveyors all join together before going through a sorter to the 2nd LCC.
Very strange is that Cobalt seems to work as intended - iron and other ores are problematic.. Surely I don't need to put a sorter on the output of each refinery....??

I'm hoping it's just some setting I have wrong. Some suggestions would be MOST welcome.

[RoofCat]

Originally posted by Bannor:

Surely I don't need to put a sorter on the output of each refinery....??

it's exactly what you need and it has been mentioned few times by others and you told you already have that. So what is it? Do you have sorters on all outputs as well or you don't?
Every loop works from both ends.

Also probably less obvious, but there are other ways to force order. Not 100% perfect, but kind of works in long term and you can save on some sorters as input is also exit. You can have all the refineries in a chain.

Like:
Input
Sorter Whitelist All ores
Refinery
Sorter Blacklist Iron ore
Refinery
Sorter Blacklist Nickel ore
Refinery
...
Sorter Drain all Blacklist Uranium ore
Ingot container

- probably it is better to start the chain with slowest ones as they are more likely to be present at all times so your short cycle but ofter needed Iron (or rapid Gold) will go straight to free final refineries and even if they land in first refineries it will be over quickly. While alternatively with this list and slower ones at the end once you have other refineries free, those earlier ones can help to chew through slow Cobalt, Platinum or Uranium but might get stuck for longer eventually? Or make the setup based on the amount of ores you process on average - so both slowness and rarity? Like Platinum-Cobalt-Uranium (because it's so rare anyway)-Nickel-Silver-Gold-Iron something? It's up to you.

The problem with this setup is ores from Refinery input storage aren't moved anywhere until processed. So pick your poison. Drain all might work as a solution, but might overload sorters themselves. So be careful while probably designing some loops or branching or branching with buffer containers at some point and test them thoroughly. Game engine might go crazy with pure loop based flushing otherwise.
Some tiny code could definitely improve automatic drainage when needed.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1694694310
To the left is classical strict sorting on way in and out (with common large tank as starting buffer, separated from exit flow by batteries to avoid loop) which should prevent any misfeeds. To the right less strict alternative (refineries are rotated to ensure they don't have direct connection between them) with buffer containers in between. The key is to set the right sorting order for the second one. Consider it engineering-programming.

Also keep in mind ores are feed to the system in the order they happen to be in cargo container. So moving those around can impact results a lot too.

[eMYNOCK]

Originally posted by Bannor:

Originally posted by eMYNOCK (=FU= MadHwK):

is there a slight chance that your refineries them self are connected to each other?

in doubt... screenshot or blueprint...

Each refinery is connected to a sorter (incoming), and the outgoing conveyors all join together before going through a sorter to the 2nd LCC.
...

you just found your problem... and the short circuit in your setup.

try to setup a dedicated input and output sorter for each refinery...

what you described sounds heavy that your ore can freely flow through the refineries and through the "output" back into all the other refineries.

[ButtKraken]

Tried this also... had the same results. All refineries fill up will ores no matter how the sorters are configured. Bug or design, idk.

[eMYNOCK]

Originally posted by hometown.lpservice:

Tried this also... had the same results. All refineries fill up will ores no matter how the sorters are configured. Bug or design, idk.

just provide us with a screenshot of your refinery setup... i am sure someone can explain what happens and provide you with an example screen how to prevent what you experience.

[ouch67]

Below shows a typical first sorter setup people make.

It's a basic setup of cargo container with sorters on the input. And connecting all the outputs into a cargo container.

But your actually creating a "short" in your network when you make your system like this.

The arrows show the path iron takes through the system to get into the nickel refinery.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1695160434

So if you have a refinery for each ore type then essentially nothing is filtered due to the ore getting pulled through the back door of each of their respective white listed filter for that ore type.

That's why you need either output sorters, segregated networks or an overall clever design that prevents this behavior.

It's a very common mistake I think pretty much everyone makes when they first play with sorters.

[eMYNOCK]

Originally posted by ouch67:

Below shows a typical first sorter setup people make.

It's a basic setup of cargo container with sorters on the input. And connecting all the outputs into a cargo container.

But your actually creating a "short" in your network when you make your system like this.

The arrows show the path iron takes through the system to get into the nickel refinery.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1695160434

So if you have a refinery for each ore type then essentially nothing is filtered due to the ore getting pulled through the back door of each of their respective white listed filter for that ore type.

That's why you need either output sorters, segregated networks or an overall clever design that prevents this behavior.

It's a very common mistake I think pretty much everyone makes when they first play with sorters.

Thanks for the Picture and the demonstration were the ore sneakes into the other Refineries.

I took the freedom and made a Picture of a basic closed System as well...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1695353517

[Bannor]

Well, putting sorters on the outputs of the refineries (and not just on the inputs) seems to have solved the problem. Their direction is away from the refinery, and ores & stone are whitelisted.

Thanks for the help, people!

[Ydyp]

Originally posted by Bannor:

Well, putting sorters on the outputs of the refineries (and not just on the inputs) seems to have solved the problem. Their direction is away from the refinery, and ores & stone are whitelisted.

Thanks for the help, people!

Good to hear, just keep in mind that ports on assemblers/refiniries are always working 2 ways. Whish you could set them to input or output instead of having to go for a sorter block which just uses extra room for the already quite large refineries.

[ouch67]

Glad you got it working. But in my experience having available refining speed unused is not a good thing.

So my setups usually result in a single sorter that pulls ore into a container. With a bank of refineries that do their own thing on that container without any sorters on them. Then at the end they all connect to a single point that has a sorter set to pull ingots that goes into a container.

That way it's simpler to set up, uses less resources, less space and I can balance the refinery load and re-organize the queue when I need too.

[Bannor]

Originally posted by ouch67:

Glad you got it working. But in my experience having available refining speed unused is not a good thing.

So my setups usually result in a single sorter that pulls ore into a container. With a bank of refineries that do their own thing on that container without any sorters on them. Then at the end they all connect to a single point that has a sorter set to pull ingots that goes into a container.

That way it's simpler to set up, uses less resources, less space and I can balance the refinery load and re-organize the queue when I need too.

Yeah, there are probably LOTS of ways of doing this kind of thing; I wanted to basically build it - and then forget about it. My only interaction with it forever afterwards should be only to supply it with more ore. And I didn't want to have all 4 of them refining iron ore (for example), and having to possibly wait for them to finish refining all of it before starting to refine another ore - and all of them drawing lots of power while doing so.
It was a bit more work to build them - but I think it was worth it. They will serve me well for a LONG time.