Car not braking enough (problem at Monza)

[vlastovka]

Hi all,

I tried a few races against the AI and I always had problem with crashing into other cars before those chicanes. Simply my braking distance is much longer than computer's. In some earlier races I thought it was caused by driving a heavier car than opponents (McLaren or Mercedes SLS). But now it happened when all cars on the track were the same.
My realism setting is factory ABS and I have it enabled in my car's setting.

[ling.speed]

Open pedal app and make sure you are using full braking force (red bar should fill up completely).

After that it's either perception (you expect more than is possible from the car) or some other issue like not braking in straight line which causes ABS to reduce braking force etc. Hard to say without a replay.

[NTU]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eltFUo2berI

OP is right however even though the AI stops faster than you can the AI stops too early so you can pass them on the inside while you slam on the brakes at 100% and your car takes longer to stop and to make sure my car stops as fast as possible i have a full tank of gas for extra weight so my car is pushed to the ground more than anyone elses plus i removed a lot of air from my tires so my rims have more contact with the road which are less slipperier than tire rubber and to make my tires super squishy with lots of grip they have less air and on top of that i have max camber and toe in to increase drag and the more drag you have the faster you can stop because drag makes things slow down and when the tires are at an angle the rubber needs to roll sideways and this also makes you stop faster because driving on the tires with them perpendicular to the road makes it so the tires are slowing the car down even when the the gas is down all the way and having a full tank makes sure all of this is better.

[ling.speed]

NTU please T_T

You completely destroy the grip of your tyres first and then you complain that AI brakes better... Well du-uh of course it brakes better, it drives on default setup!

Also mashing the pedal to the max under low grip/high toe conditions will reduce ABS effectivness. Even with that dreadful setup you could reduce braking distance by like 10-20meters just by threshold braking.

edit: reading that block of text... turns out it's a troll post lol oke ~ i got jebaited.

[NTU]

Originally posted by ling.speed:

edit: reading that block of text... turns out it's a troll post lol oke ~ i got jebaited.

Hahahaha!!!!!!!

In all seriousness, what setup do you recommend to test braking distance between human and AI?

[ling.speed]

Originally posted by NTU:

Originally posted by ling.speed:

edit: reading that block of text... turns out it's a troll post lol oke ~ i got jebaited.

Hahahaha!!!!!!!

In all seriousness, what setup do you recommend to test braking distance between human and AI?

I mean, if we are at a point of adding fuel will increase grip for braking, i recommend a Tanker Truck mod. But sice you asked "seriously":

1) Get pressures into optimum values. You didn't use tyre blankets so for that 911 case increasing it for that T1 would help, thou in race default pressures would be better probably.
2) do not mess with toe - more toe means more work tyres do in direction that is not braking. Also excessive toe will tell ABS that the car is turning and so the system will reduce braking to keep car in control. Thou don't go all 0.0s as toe changes when driving, and you need rear stability too.
3) best camber for braking is 0.0, but unless you run super high camber (outside of possible to set in game) the difference will be negligible so it really doens't matter.

For the 911 more rear camber than front and positive rear toe (0.1-0.2) would be best as that car has very strong rear brakes and keeping car perfectly straight is much more important than the direct effects of alighnment on braking grip.

A good setup change would be to turn off ABS for a couple of braking runs, to feel where and how car locks up, learn to threshold brake and then apply that with ABS turned on.
With ABS you can brake harder, but just how much is optimal depends on a car. That 911 is fine being just on the edge of ABS engaging, while many lotuses have very forward brake bias and that unfortunately need a higher brake pressure to get the rear to brake at full capacity.

Also AI does not actually use ABS even if the car has it. It tries to threshold brake always, which can be better than just ABS+max brake force but the algorithm isn't perfect so a experienced human could do a better job without ABS too (and even better when using ABS properly).

[NTU]

Originally posted by ling.speed:

Also AI does not actually use ABS even if the car has it. It tries to threshold brake always, which can be better than just ABS+max brake force but the algorithm isn't perfect so a experienced human could do a better job without ABS too (and even better when using ABS properly).

I think you're actually on to something here.. How do you know this?

[ling.speed]

Originally posted by NTU:

I think you're actually on to something here.. How do you know this?

I think Stefano mentioned it on one of his coding streams. Also you can see it if you give the AI control (ctrl+C) it moves the brake pedal super fast. And if you are experienced in slip angles/ratios (modders would be) you can see the difference in braking itself between ABS and AI on dev apps like "suspensions".

The idea is that AI needs to anticipate the amount of grip is going to get before it performs an action, and that gets extra important in transient states like turn in or over bumps/elevation changes.

ABS can change that grip* on the fly and impact the handling by a lot. So instead of making a complicated code to teach the AI how to perdict the ABS too, it just disables ABS and uses parts of ABS code itself to modulate the brake pedal. The effect is very similar as if it were using ABS but the AI code is much more simple and less error prone.

* edit: technically ABS does not change total grip but can reduce braking grip for more lateral grip which for AI is like driving a different car suddenly.

[vlastovka]

Originally posted by ling.speed:

Open pedal app and make sure you are using full braking force (red bar should fill up completely).

After that it's either perception (you expect more than is possible from the car) or some other issue like not braking in straight line which causes ABS to reduce braking force etc. Hard to say without a replay.

Thank you. I will try the pedal app. I will try and make a replay some day I won't be tired so I would not post a blatant mistake.
Regarding upload, is there some good place to upload replays or does not it matter?

[ling.speed]

Youtube is best if you want more people to respond. In this case thou rep file will probably be better as we'll be able to see your inputs. You can use any free hosting site or google drive etc.

[THE HUSKY™]

tranning

[vlastovka]

Here is a short replay:

https://uloz.to/file/4OhaEBN7Id6X/ac-200120-173852-r-ferrari-458-s3-monza

Car accident happens before the first turn.

[NTU]

Originally posted by vlastovka:

Here is a short replay:

https://uloz.to/file/4OhaEBN7Id6X/ac-200120-173852-r-ferrari-458-s3-monza

Car accident happens before the first turn.

Use YouTube, there's probably a virus in there. It says your video is an application, c'mon man..

[ling.speed]

Originally posted by NTU:

Use YouTube, there's probably a virus in there. It says your video is an application, c'mon man..

It's a virus called not being used to download sites :P. The file is fine, you got baited on the advert.

Originally posted by vlastovka:

Here is a short replay:

https://uloz.to/file/4OhaEBN7Id6X/ac-200120-173852-r-ferrari-458-s3-monza

Car accident happens before the first turn.

Unfortunately it looks like good old case of braking too late. You braked 1-2 car lengths closer to the corner than the red car so even assuming the exact same braking for both cars you'd hit each other at around 100km/h.

My tip would be to:
1) look at track features (brake markers) and cars several places in front as hints to when to start braking (don't wait for the car you are following, but brake when the car in front on the other lane does).
2) try braking earlier but not at full force, it's much easier to match speeds with the car in front that way. And also AI reduces brake power when closer to the corner so if you slow down too much initially there will be plenty of opportunity catch up later in the braking zone. (for example you can start to coast early and then brake with the car in front)

edit: In general, most important thing when following somebody is to not look at him when approaching braking zone, as nobody has fast enough reactions to brake off the car in front.

Anyways, this is a really hard car to match braking with AI... also I didn't know slower AI was braking to the full car potential, that must suck for newbies! The only consolation is that it can only get better from here as you improve.

[vlastovka]

Thank you for tips Ling. I think you are right - at 200 kph every split second counts and unlike AI I cannot aplly full brake force instantly.

Meanwhile I resorted racing the first lap slowly as the last car and I start overtaking from 2nd lap. Which is fine with a 4 or 6 lap race and easy AI setting.

Btw I was used to and had a lot of fun with Forza. It displayed optimal line together with optimal speed in turns and breaking points. Which was really helpful with hundreds of cars ranging from city cars to LeMans prototypes.

[ling.speed]

Originally posted by vlastovka:

Btw I was used to and had a lot of fun with Forza. It displayed optimal line together with optimal speed in turns and breaking points. Which was really helpful with hundreds of cars ranging from city cars to LeMans prototypes.

Yeah this dynamic racing lines feel really useful initially but it can become a big problem when you try to improve. To be fast, be it real life or sim, a driver needs to look far enough ahead, while the virtual line makes us focus on the track immidiately in front of the car.

So unfortunately the experience in braking does not transfer from Forza to other sims or real life at all. But then when you learn it properly you will get faster in Froza too!

Thinking about it more, if instead of a colored line Forza had a light sitting above apex that changed color depending on speed, that would most likely make everybody much faster haha.

Originally posted by vlastovka:

Meanwhile I resorted racing the first lap slowly as the last car and I start overtaking from 2nd lap. Which is fine with a 4 or 6 lap race and easy AI setting.

Yep this is a good tactic both for single player and multiplayer races.