Dog Box gearbox cars in Assetto?

[Freeping]

Does anybody know if there are any cars in Assetto that have a Dog Box gearbox?

[Powerz]

there are not

[Talkie Toaster]

Originally posted by Freeping:

Does anybody know if there are any cars in Assetto that have a Dog Box gearbox?

GT3 cars should all use a 'dog box' and probably a few more in the game, though I am unable to test if they work as they should as I don't have a shifter at the moment, though I imagine they will work as intended. Test them out by shifting without the clutch I guess (disable auto-clutch).

[Freeping]

Originally posted by Gen. Leopold von Flockenstuffen:

Originally posted by Freeping:

Does anybody know if there are any cars in Assetto that have a Dog Box gearbox?

GT3 cars should all use a 'dog box' and probably a few more in the game, though I am unable to test if they work as they should as I don't have a shifter at the moment, though I imagine they will work as intended. Test them out by shifting without the clutch I guess (disable auto-clutch).

I should have specified that I am looking for cars without electronically assisted shifting. With a normal Dog Box the upshifts require the driver to lift the throttle for upshifts and blip the throttle for downshifts; the clutch is not used. Are there cars that can be driven like that without enabling driver assists in the simulator?

[Major Issue]

I think Automobilista has some car(s) with this gear box but I don't know about any in Assetto Corsa. Would be nice to see some in the future since Assetto is being still improved over time.

[kazereal]

Originally posted by Freeping:

the upshifts require the driver to lift the throttle for upshifts and blip the throttle for downshifts

Blipping the throttle is one thing: some cars have electronic support for automatic blip, regardless if clutch is used or not. When AC is loading you should see that in the short information during loading screen.

Cars where you can shift without using clutch often work without clutch in AC too: I think the Mercedes-Sauber C9 works like that (some time since I checked) and F1 cars might work too.

Edit: Porsche 962 "short tail" seems to support it although it is a bit tricky about the RPM where you do change

[Freeping]

Originally posted by kazereal:

I think the Mercedes-Sauber C9 works like that (some time since I checked) and F1 cars might work too.

Awesome, I will try to shift the Sauber C9 without pressing the clutch unlike I always do. What F1 cars should work? Lotus 98T?

[kazereal]

Originally posted by Freeping:

Originally posted by kazereal:

I think the Mercedes-Sauber C9 works like that (some time since I checked) and F1 cars might work too.

Awesome, I will try to shift the Sauber C9 without pressing the clutch unlike I always do. What F1 cars should work? Lotus 98T?

I think I remembered that one wrong, the old F1 cars don't seem to have that.

[Freeping]

I managed to shift the Sauber C9 without clutch. However you have to do it perfectly or the gearbox breaks. It took me 3 attempts to complete a lap in Nordschleife, I would not do it in a race. The lotus 98 required clutch for sure.

[jason]

I don't think you can really simulate a dog box without some sort of force-feedback h-shifter. I know iRacing tried to awhile ago (haven't driven it in years, not sure if they still do) by letting you preload the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by holding down a paddle but I think that in general the few sims that try to have a transmission model just treat everything like it's syncromesh, which is why my G25's h-shifter is in the closet somewhere.

[kazereal]

Originally posted by jason moyer:

which is why my G25's h-shifter is in the closet somewhere.

G25 shifter has plenty of problems. Things like how easily you slot into entirely wrong gear by mistake, generally lack of precision and feedback.

Someone once mentioned G27 has a better one but I haven't tried that. It would be cool to have something else at some point..

Some people use motorcycle steering damper in flight pedals, I wonder if something like that could be used to improve the G25 shifter too..

[BluesyMoo]

Originally posted by jason moyer:

I don't think you can really simulate a dog box without some sort of force-feedback h-shifter. I know iRacing tried to awhile ago (haven't driven it in years, not sure if they still do) by letting you preload the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by holding down a paddle but I think that in general the few sims that try to have a transmission model just treat everything like it's syncromesh, which is why my G25's h-shifter is in the closet somewhere.

Live for Speed has that, too. That you're holding the paddle (or sequential stick) is basically treated as applying some force on the real stick.

[R.C. Collins]

iracing's gearboxes are horribly inaccurate. The 'loading' that someone mentioned is a load of baloney. That's iracing's explanation for their fake, heap of junk. If you tried that with any gearbox you'd be picking up bits of metal strewn all over the track. I recall some iracer going to a Skip Barber course or something like that and trying what he learned at iracing and was hauled off the track when they realized that he was doing something completely bone headed and was going to destroy equipment. iracing straight to the track.. uh huh! Sure!

Just forget/ignore anything you hear about iracing... seriously.

A real 'dog box' gearbox, aka, a cut gear is as follows;
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/impp-1109-synchromesh-vs-dog-box

It is an H-Pattern 4 or 5 or 6 speed without any synchronization rings to assist in meshing gears when shifting. Additionally the cut angle of the gears vary depending on the result desired by a situation or race conditions that they have to survive. Typically drivers lift to shift and some will clutch on the downshifts though it's not necessary. It's done to be nice to equipment, or in some cases, various parts of the track where braking zones are bumpy, to avoid wheel hop/lockup particularly as tires start to wear. It requires skill to be smooth so the shifts are clean, particularly downshifting.

The master Max Papis;
https://youtu.be/-jQC_g_3O1E?t=28s

Mr. Jim Pace - One heck of a good racecar driver;
https://youtu.be/6DN4BUBF_Xo

These types of gearboxes have been around since the sixties. One of my instructors drove Formula Ford and Formula 3 in the late 60s - mid 70s and they used them as far back as then. F1 up to around 1993 were still using them. NASCAR teams back in the 70s used Ford Top Loaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Toploader_transmission with a cut gear, no synchros.

Factoid, Senna was against the switch to sequential as he felt it took away from the skill required to be better than someone as any idiot could just paddle up and down through gears. It brought about a new generation of left foot only brakers.

GT3 cars DO NOT use 'dog box' gears. They are typically using some kind of sequential gearbox like a Hewland. These are like a motorcycle in that you have to move up and down sequentially through the gears 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and from top gear back down 7-6-5-4-3-2-1. Any modern era sequential are often electronically assisted, pneumatic or hydraulic driven shift mechanisms with a 'fly by wire' from the paddles or stick.

Currently AMS is the only accurate representation of a 'dog box' and in Hardcore mode, it forces it as it would be specific to the car/era you drive. rF2 attempted something like it with Howston (Lola T70) but it was a real poor implementation that was not an accurate representation. AC kind of does it but it seems inconsistent as to how it requires it in that it sort of works like it should but sometimes lets you get away with a bit of cheating. The F40 is an example that comes to mind though in the real world I don't believe it used any kind of gearbox like this. These are typically race transmissions.

[jason]

I would be highly surprised if GT3 cars were using synchromesh transmissions. You can have a straight-cut gearbox and still have the shifting handled electronically. Not only that, but it's obvious that there's straight-cut ♥♥♥♥♥♥ whine if you watch onboards of cars where the transmission is audible (primarily front-engined cars).

The pre-loading of the shifter is how Hewland recommends operating their transmissions if you're going full-manual:

http://www.hewland.com/advice-faq/

"With no assistance from the engine management, the driver must lift off the throttle sufficiently to allow the dog ring to be pulled out of engagement. He should then stay off the throttle long enough to allow the dog ring to engage with the next gear. In practice, the driver can move the gear lever faster than he can move his foot off and back on to the throttle. Therefore the effective method is to apply load to the gear lever with your hand and then lift the throttle foot off and back on to the pedal as fast as physically possible. In lifting your foot, the loaded gear lever will almost involuntarily flick to the next gear before the foot is re-applied to the throttle."

[Talkie Toaster]

I think there is some confusion over what a dog box is, like jason says above it just means they don't have synchromesh and you can have a dog box with or without electronic assistance and with or without straight cut gear sets.

As far as I know the GT3 cars use a sequential 'dog-type' box, they just have assistance.