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Ross Bentley former Indycar driver and professional racing coach. Per Ultimate Speed Secrets page 105:
"One of the first pieces of advice that new race drivers are given is 'Going into the corners slowly and coming out fast is better than the opposite.'"
page 116:
"As I mentioned earlier, the midcorner phase is what separates the champions from the truly great drivers."
Most sim racers approaching racing as gamers not racers. As I've said many times you can "game" the sim, but there are several instances where learning real racecraft and car control technique can help explain the sometimes confusing phenomenon presented by sims that sim racers think is inaccurate but is actually true to life.
As example, thinking that turning while braking is impossible or "slow" with a car that has ABS when the entire purpose of ABS is to allow the driver to steer while braking.
Because the subjects discussed tend to complicated, my posts tend to be longer than most. I don't expect everyone to read them, especially those who are looking for the "cheat codes" of going fast. All the same if you want to learn how to drive a car fast instead of how to "game" the sim, by an decent intermediate level trackday driver that is told almost every time he goes on track "wow you're fast." And told by instructors, "I don't even need to be here. Unlike most people, even very fast guys, you know how to read the car, what you need to do with it, and why." I'm here to help.
If you consider offering knowledge, experience, and correcting those who have no idea what they're talking about "trolling" that's up to you.
It sounds stupid, I know, but turn the wheel less. Sims train drivers to use steering feel as an indicator of grip. Turn off enhanced understeer effect, if you have it on. It will be more like a real car that way. In real life many drivers when they put racing tires on initially go no faster. They are use to the steering feel provided by street tires and search for the same feel in the new grippier tires.
The feel of the car at peak slip can be quite subtle. NO ONE rides the fine line of peak slip perfectly. You go slightly over and under constantly. The more skilled driver narrows the range. The skilled track driver constantly saws at the wheels searching for grip. The master makes small corrections, but adjusts the car with the gas and brake. You steer a car with your foot and brake with the steering wheel.
Good video showing such:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU
Acceleration from corner is pretty easy to get down nowadays, it's the entry that requires attention. So advising drivers to do what is basically a late apex, might save a spin or two (which could matter IRL from money perspective) but will be a detriment in the long run for an average simracer. And i could go on and on arguing many other things in that book.
Same with the iconic skip barber going faster video, or even the above mentioned Sennas heel and toe.
Just because "oh my god it's senna" does not make it a good example. Like look at 0:47, he understeers into the corner, applies throttle before apex and coasts till exit, even a random pub simracer can do better. 1:16 he understeers quite badly, tries to fix with throttle which does not even work either. Also most street cars in AC don't have the balance like in 2:00, they'd understeer there. So it's not even apples to apples comparison.
Senna was an amazing driver but it's a showpiece/celebrity video. And i'd see it fitting HighRoLas comment more than yours :P
I mean these old resources are important piece of history, but stuff Driver61 does (both his main and simracing channel) is much more fitting for modern (sim)racing. And it's better to move with the times.
Oh and don't get triggered/baited by Mr Deap, he lives in a different dimention to us... cheers :)
You cant really steer while braking even while abs is kicking in. its really not going to turn at all if the tyres are chattering like they will with ABS. doesnt help while trailbraking either, just protects the driver and car from the drivers ♥♥♥♥ ups.
theres a reason why f1 doesnt have abs or tcs - emphasis on driver skill and driver mistakes have a bigger impact.
Indeed, that is why in "Ultimate Speed Secrets" the discussion of the exit phase of the corner is a mere three pages and the discussion of the entry phase is eleven. It's a primer and a quick reference. The advice to maximize exit speed is to start there FIRST, then entry speed, then mid corner speed. You CAN'T maximize entry speed first as entry speed is constantly getting higher (and thus changing) as exit speed gets faster. It's one of the most frustrating and challenging aspect of getting faster on a track, namely that getting better on one part of it means you get worse on the next.
Never followed Driver61, watched the video Mr. Deap posted and ironically it agrees with basically everything I've been saying on these forums for quite a while. The explanations, however, give the impression of someone that has never tracked a car in real life though...I could be wrong in that.
Anyway, I'll simply say, with regards to Senna that what a sim racer might be able to do and what someone can do in an actual car is in no way comparable. Every professional driver I've ever heard of ain't lapping seriously if they aren't at least wearing a helmet. The Senna example is an example of car balance and how it is generally done, not lapping perfection.
This leads to another quick point. Lapping a car in real life will NEVER be the same as lapping a sim as there is no fear of death. As personal example I entered the "bus stop" at Watkins Glen easily 10mph slower in real life compared to AC. I also shift from 4th to 3rd there in AC but hold the shift for later in real life due to the simple fact that I want to see my wife and kids after a session. Once again you can be sure a helmetless Senna with no fire-suit in a streetcar with no fire suppression system or roll cage is acutely aware of that as well. They were not nor never intended to be qualifying laps.
And yes, these are older references. Modern driver development is analysing this:
https://yousuckatracing.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/higher-gear.png
...The rabbithole only gets deeper.
And oh yeah, Mr. Deap doesn't bother me personally. Just don't want someone to be led astray believing his usually nonsense advice
Racing ABS systems are much better than street systems, same thing with TC. ABS GT-AM cars in IMSA regularly rival the braking of the higher downforce non ABS GT-Pro cars. Even for street cars, I've mentioned I once drove a autocross course that had a awkward decreasing radius turn following a long straight. It was a big advantage for the ABS cars to be thrown into that turn while the non ABS cars always smoked a tire.
Street ABS is designed to stop grandma from killing herself when a deer jumps out in front of her. Motorsports ABS is designed for performance. That being said even street systems are an advantage.
I can pull quotes from the development of the C4 corvette's ABS system and its use in showroom stock racing. To put it simply when the team saw how they were able to bring the car to a stop in an emergency lane change at 120mph (!), it became standard equipment.
Which is why you shouldn't use steering feel to determine grip. The best way is through your butt (impossible to simulate), and your eyes...mostly your eyes. People focus too much on steering feel. My daily driver Buick has three settings for steering feel, normal, sport, and GS. It literally increases the weight of the wheel through the press of a button. Does the car grip harder in GS mode compared to normal mode, nope. Does it "feel" better, yes. But feel is not grip and grip is speed. The steering rack lies to you. Use your eyes, both in real life and the sim. THAT is why sim racers, who really learn how to drive a sim like a real car, can be fast in a real car with no prior training. You primarily use your eyes in both.
My point is that in real life newbie driver underdrives the car which makes it natural to adjust each part of the corner separately, but simracer naturally overdrives it, and that makes the entry dictate everything that follows. So training for exit will make him either confused or using wrong lines that will be a problem later.
Also modern cars have much more grip so even when underdriving the exit is usually trivial enough that it will get sorted naturally when doing mid corner training anyways.
Yeah exactly. If we approached simracing like real racing all that stuff would be applicable, but we don't. That's my gripe with these old resources, they aren't well suited to the way we drive in simulations.
Plus real life was a bit more limited in the tools department back then. Now we can use live telemetry to improve much faster.
For example: in the old days they had speedometers as a main indicator of how they did in a corner. Hence overfocus on exit speed. But now with the advent of accurate delta we can improve on that by gaining time mid corner at expense of some exit speed.
Also you bring up telemetry image, and i'd say that even modern racing a bit dated when compared to simracing. As we can have that kind of telemetry live on track, analizing ourselves as we drive, something that would be quite difficult to do IRL. Which brings an interesting point: that simracing has the potential to be at the forefront of learning to drive quickly, but for now it just stumbles around following real racing. Thou i guess it's logical as these games are supposed to be more of an immersive fantasy instead of a tool :)
You are not going to win. I've been through this on several forums and just accepted it as a natural phenomenon.
I wasn't trying to poke holes, just giving a quick critique of one video. I don't follow Driver61, don't disparage anyone how does as I don't know enough about him to have an actual opinion.
Actually in real life the novice overdrives slow corners and underdrives fast ones. Unfortunately modern safety systems are so good it's hard to tell sometimes when they're saving the driver.
Corner exit should be used as the judge of how good the corner entry was, whether you're fighting the car to keep it on the track, have to drive it to the edge of the track, or whether the car enters a perfect four wheel drift to the last millimeter of track (those feel good in real life and even in a sim). If you don't know what a good exit is you can't judge what a good entry is. Furthermore, most of this discussion has assumed we are talking about raw speed aka qualifying laps. Qualifying is not racing. And the fastest line on track is NOT the racing line. The fastest line will have rivals diving under you on every brake zone.
It is a fun exercise in real life and can be done in sims to purposely enter turns off line. The entry is different, but the exit remains the same. Sim racers are notoriously bad at driving off line. There is constant talk on this forum and others how they get crashed into by people trying to pass them. The constant sim racing focus on pure speed has lost the art of racecraft and car control. Once again they drive like gamers, not racers.
Last time on track in real life I was in an open passing group. Entries into every corner were different. Of course I tried to maximize those off line entries, nevertheless, the exits were all the same.
This is less of a deal than you realize. So the car slides at 90mph instead of 70mph. Other than that there is no real difference.
Once again mid corner is the last step. That is when a driver realizes that you drive a 700hp Vette the same way as a 110hp Miata.
That is the choice of the sim racer. I try to drive AC the way I drive a real car. I actually, and successfully, used it to learn how to drive Watkins Glen, a track until that time I never driven before.
If you want to "game" the sim that's your choice. But personally I think it's strange that sim racers demand the most realistic sim they can get and then proceed to drive it completely unrealistically. They shouldn't feel too bad though. High dollar sports car buyers buy very fast cars expecting the safety systems to stop them from killing themselves. Hard to even get a car with a manual anymore. Some supercar manufacturers have stated they started building more understeer in their cars because of the modern, unskilled, driver (namely rich people in china).
Once again, no one is saying that you should forget the entry and middle of a corner. They say you should focus on the exit FIRST when learning how to drive fast. It has the most bang for the buck in terms of effort and has the least chance of killing yourself if you screw it up.
That is exactly how modern coaching is done. It is illegal in most forms of racing during the race.
It is at the forefront of learning to drive quickly, for race teams, pilots, and the military. The difference is in those realms the drivers and pilots purposely try to behave exactly as they do in real life and don't try to "game" the sim.
As example in REAL military flight training with REAL jets F/A-18 pilots were making missile shots and getting kills in training by flying to very high AOA. It was later found out that in reality those missiles would NEVER fly right when fired at that AOA and would miss. So real life military fighter pilots were gaming real flight training and doing themselves a disservice.
Once again, you don't HAVE to game the sim.
I'm not trying to convince him, just the poster and lurkers fool enough to listen to him
You're not tall enough for this ride.
Simracing games can be used as tool. They got almost perfectly recreated tracks & you can study the layout & the braking points are not so off.
Those who use simracing as immersion are the main source of problem in the community. They share some of the worst garbage & makes healthy competitive scene difficult to happen.
Games is not real life... Yeah, sim racing is somehow realistic, but to be competitive you got to adapt to the learning curve. Those learning curve are kept hidden from the social media.
Every new people to sim have some of the best seat in class to get trolled every day from the social media. Simracers claim the simulated car is trying to kill you with soft slick tires that feel like econobox 4 season tires, but have on/off throttle control skillset, bomb dive with the brake to trail brake & rock the steering like a mad person at 300mph.
Social Media...
"Look at that driving skill & how smooth they are driving"
Yeah that's what im saying :D, agree completely. Nice to see someone get it on steam forums for once, 100% agree with the latter parts too. Thou i think it's harder to adjust lines in simracing than RL (the skill is less widespread), maybe because of the type of cars we drive.
Again agree 100%. Thou my concerns were more with how simracers need first to fill the lack of physical (and often full audio-visual) cues. So they aren't really in control of the car, and with how polarizing car balance in AC is, if they are not snap oversteering they can get away with any kind of inputs on exit.
If you look at less experianced driver (or even some with 10years of experience, as i saw lately in other thread on AC forums) they still are not in full control of their cars. This would only happen for a short while (if ever at all) in real life.
And when they control the car in bursts once every other second or when they have excessive inputs (steering, braking with ABS etc) that create a lag when it's time to reduce them, trying to get the best exit will only confuse them with seemingly random results. The inputs that direct the car toward exit are happening at/before the apex, after apex the car is almost on autopilot.
Thou i guess it depends on a sim and a car too. I can definitely can imagine a situation where learning to do a proper exit first would be best, but IMHO in many cases in AC the faster a driver starts to focus on mid corner (where real mistakes happen) the faster he'll improve his car control.
Ah of course. I'm thinking more when it's simulation for simulation sake, when a driver is without the ability to race IRL. Which is unfortunately more common occurance.
There are reasources that would help bridge the gap that lack of RL experiences create, but they are not popular, likely because they are not used IRL.
Plus, we could distinguish two types of "simulations" one to increase the practice time at a lower cost (as close as possible to reality) and higher level simulations, where for example pilots look at the battlefiled from tactical PoV of an AWACS and analyze the situation in a way they would not be using when flying. The tools i mention fall more into the latter category: as a knowleage extenders.
So im not really into "gaming" the system, but rather to have broader perspective, fill the gaps that lack of real driving creates. Which could be important even more when you consider we are on limited time and work as a driver, engineer, manager etc in one person.
ps: Actually ACC "car control" rating is such system - it shows how close a driver was to the limit for each corner live. Would you consider it gaming the system?