Wrong Downshifting? proper clutch use

[Lee Chun Bey]

hello, i'm in need of help to resolve an issue with my driving because i don't know what i am doing wrong technically speaking.
I am a gamepad player, playing with ABS, 50% tc and 50% sc. time ago, i was able to downshift right because i usually played with auto-clutch, then i could even disable full TC and SC.
to up a little more the difficulty i decided to assign the clutch to one of the analog sticks. but i realized that most of the time that downshifting is needed to make the corners properly, the car is losing traction. in other words, after the downshift and clutch release, the backend becomes "loose".
Am I not braking enough before the downshifts? or is the way that i release the clutch that is wrong?
OBS: Throttle Blip is in AUTO

-i'm sorry for the noob question, but this is the first simulation game that i played for real in my life hahah and i'm trying to properly learn all the things.

[clairvoyantwolf]

Originally posted by NTU:

Originally posted by TANACATA:

what i should do is to hold the clutch between all the downshifts while braking to a corner and just release it when is the acceleration time again?

No no no, release the clutch every time you change gear. Clutch-in, change gear, release clutch. Back on the clutch, change gear, release the clutch.

Like I said, in ONLY very extreme circumstances, what you can do to speed up the time to a complete stop or near complete stop, you can keep the clutch engaged the entire time, change into the gear you need to be in (like going straight from 6th to 2nd) and NEVER let go of the clutch or get on the gas until you've properly speed matched. When you're racing, never skip a gear like that, you'll loose tremendous amounts of grip every time you change gear lol.

You absolutely do not need to clutch out every time you change gear. That is one of the advantages of a H pattern shifter. There is nothing "extreme" about going from 6th to say 4th or 3rd to pass someone on the highway and skipping the inbetween gears. If you rev match the car doesn't care.

[MicroKORGI]

Originally posted by clairvoyantwolf:

Originally posted by NTU:

No no no, release the clutch every time you change gear. Clutch-in, change gear, release clutch. Back on the clutch, change gear, release the clutch.

Like I said, in ONLY very extreme circumstances, what you can do to speed up the time to a complete stop or near complete stop, you can keep the clutch engaged the entire time, change into the gear you need to be in (like going straight from 6th to 2nd) and NEVER let go of the clutch or get on the gas until you've properly speed matched. When you're racing, never skip a gear like that, you'll loose tremendous amounts of grip every time you change gear lol.

You absolutely do not need to clutch out every time you change gear. That is one of the advantages of a H pattern shifter. There is nothing "extreme" about going from 6th to say 4th or 3rd to pass someone on the highway and skipping the inbetween gears. If you rev match the car doesn't care.

Rev matching is difficult to master with pedals, let alone on a controller. There's nothing wrong with using the clutch between gears, it's easier on the dogs, collars, and synchros in the long run.

[clairvoyantwolf]

There is nothing "wrong" about using the clutch between gears, but there is certainly nothing "extreme" about it either. That was my point. If we are talking about mechanical symphathy that is a different discussion.

[Lee Chun Bey]

Originally posted by clairvoyantwolf:

So, TANACATA, let me see if I got the timeline right. You use a controller and previously used 50% stability control and traction control with autoclutch. Now you turned off the stability control systems and use a manual clutch and think the reason why you are having trouble handling the car is because of how you downshift? Perhaps the reason why you are having trouble has nothing to do with the clutch and maybe the sc/tc was saving you more than you realized. With autoblip on it really doesn't matter how you use the clutch as you are bascially just using a very elaborate sequential manual.

no, i have wrote it in a confused way. to play with Auto clutch, i can manage WITHOUT any assists (besides ABS) and don't have any problems. when i've set Manual Clutch, i've set aswell the 50% assists to help me adjust.

But, i'm still experimenting with it and one thing that i could notice is that it was probably something about the braking + turning that is making me do it wrong. i'm trying to brake harder before turning to drop a little more the Rpm and with the car going straight.. that seems to help a lot hahahah

[clairvoyantwolf]

So to see if I got it right. You were getting loose on corner entry, specifically when letting out the clutch?

[Lee Chun Bey]

exactly.
* Corner aproaching > Start Braking (ABS ON) > downshift (too early I believe + Starting to turn) > When release the clutch, the car loses the backend. *

[NTU]

Originally posted by MicroKORGI:

Originally posted by clairvoyantwolf:

You absolutely do not need to clutch out every time you change gear. That is one of the advantages of a H pattern shifter. There is nothing "extreme" about going from 6th to say 4th or 3rd to pass someone on the highway and skipping the inbetween gears. If you rev match the car doesn't care.

Rev matching is difficult to master with pedals, let alone on a controller. There's nothing wrong with using the clutch between gears, it's easier on the dogs, collars, and synchros in the long run.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, less wear the better. It's good to practice proper shifting technique in a sim so when you're on the road, you can properly heel-toe and never have to be in neutral, jam gears or any of that. Yes, the car doesn't care if you rev match, but most people can't, so I don't even get into it. OP is asking how to shift which implies he can't rev match... See where I'm going with this?

[clairvoyantwolf]

Originally posted by TANACATA:

exactly.
* Corner aproaching > Start Braking (ABS ON) > downshift (too early I believe + Starting to turn) > When release the clutch, the car loses the backend. *

I suspect the issue is exactly as you think, letting out the clutch too early. Contrary to popular belief there really is no need to furiously shift down the gears when approaching a corner. All that really matters is that you are in the correct gear when exiting the corner. Once again if you have auto blip turned on rev matching is basically pointless and as I said before, you have made your control setup a complicated semi-auto transmission.

Anyway, there is no real need to drop a gear through a turn (though it can be done). Your aim at corner exit is to have your rpm at or near the torque peak.

[clairvoyantwolf]

Originally posted by NTU:

Originally posted by MicroKORGI:

Rev matching is difficult to master with pedals, let alone on a controller. There's nothing wrong with using the clutch between gears, it's easier on the dogs, collars, and synchros in the long run.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, less wear the better. It's good to practice proper shifting technique in a sim so when you're on the road, you can properly heel-toe and never have to be in neutral, jam gears or any of that. Yes, the car doesn't care if you rev match, but most people can't, so I don't even get into it. OP is asking how to shift which implies he can't rev match... See where I'm going with this?

The OP said he uses auto blip so he doesn't even need to rev match. The OP is using a controller so any real life technique is lost on him. AC doesn't model wear (as far as I know) to shift forks or synchros, etc. As you said yourself, most people can't rev match through a heel toe down shift, nor would they need to know (once again the OP doesn't need to). As you said yourself the car doesn't care as long as the revs are matched. Some auto trans in real life skip gears. Some manual trans in real life force the driver to skip gears.

So with all that in account, no I don't know where you are going with this.

[NTU]

Originally posted by clairvoyantwolf:

The OP is using a controller so any real life technique is lost on him.

That's like saying, "you're riding a motorcycle so nothing transfers over when you're driving a car." No, the principals behind everything are still the same. A clutch is a clutch, a gearbox is still.. You guessed it... a gearbox! *MIND BLOWN!!!!!!!!!!* If you start looking at how things work instead of just thinking everything is magic, you'll learn a lot in life, including how transmissions and clutches work. Whether you're changing gear on a motorcycle using your phallus, shifting in a car with your knee, or by pressing your tongue on a controller to engage and disengage the clutch, what's actually happening at a mechanical level is still the same. A smart person would know all of this already, it's actually pathetic I need to explain this in such great detail.

Originally posted by clairvoyantwolf:

AC doesn't model wear (as far as I know) to shift forks or synchros, etc.

That's true but it's good practice to shift properly in a sim, even though you're not actually damaing anything, I said this earlier.

So, back to OP, after all the advice we've given, all you still losing traction? If so, can you make a video as to what's happening so I can help you? I say, "I" because clairvoyantwolf rather waste everyone's time in this thread and troll.

If you're such a genius, chairvoyagerfjdjsfdnsjsGARBAGEHEREwolf, collaberate to this thread with some useful advice for OP instead of going on some stupid rant about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Lee Chun Bey]

Well, i thank everyone for the reason that i "entered the car and motorsport world" very recently, so, any conversation about this stuff is still very interesting to me hahaha
About my original issue, i've been practicing with other cars and tracks and started to get the right way to do. At the end, what i could realize is that braking correctly is much harder than it looks xP so, with the correct amount and right time for braking and downshifting, it is gettin better

[Lee Chun Bey]

I know that i never be equally competitive or be really good because of the controller limitations, but, for the ones that want to try, it is an interesting experience to play with all pedals in the controller

[clairvoyantwolf]

Originally posted by NTU:

If you're such a genius, chairvoyagerfjdjsfdnsjsGARBAGEHEREwolf, collaberate to this thread with some useful advice for OP instead of going on some stupid rant about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

I did, previously. And you don't.

[clairvoyantwolf]

Originally posted by TANACATA:

Well, i thank everyone for the reason that i "entered the car and motorsport world" very recently, so, any conversation about this stuff is still very interesting to me hahaha
About my original issue, i've been practicing with other cars and tracks and started to get the right way to do. At the end, what i could realize is that braking correctly is much harder than it looks xP so, with the correct amount and right time for braking and downshifting, it is gettin better

Moving on.

Yes, braking is vastly more complicated than it appears and since I assume you have a analogue input for the brake it is something you can use to your advantage. Speaking in general, the most important aspect of braking is how you initially press the brakes and how you release them. The most helpful way to think of this, at least for me is with tire loading. Stated simply a tire that has more weight on it (load) has more grip. So letting off the gas or pressing the brake causes weight to go forward on a car giving the front tires more grip (which part of the reason why the front brakes on cars are larger than the rear). You can use that grip to help the car turn in faster than it otherwise would. The catch, and there is always a catch, is that a tire that is braking cannot use that same grip for turning. So as you let off the brake you can use that grip to turn. On and on until you have no brake and using 100% of the grip for turning. ...Then the opposite happens on corner exit.

Maximizing the traction circle of a car in all directions is much akin to dancing, which is what makes learning "car control" so fun. Need the car to turn more put a little more weight, more load up front. Need it to turn less, put a little more weight on the rear. Sawing at the wheel is for movies. In real life and AC you actually control a car's path with your right foot (or right finger in your case).

Good video showing as such:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3c640KiB4c

[NTU]

Originally posted by clairvoyantwolf:

Originally posted by NTU:

If you're such a genius, chairvoyagerfjdjsfdnsjsGARBAGEHEREwolf, collaberate to this thread with some useful advice for OP instead of going on some stupid rant about how I don't know what I'm talking about.

I did, previously. And you don't.

I drive stick IRL you tool lmao. I also don't burn clutches out. Race me in AC if you think you're so good.