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what drives me mad is that even in single player you have no way of finding out how to BOP any car to replicate the multiplayer tune, so you must learn to tune cars right away, and tune a car during the practice quali session for every race.
If you fail to tune well or to do a good qualli, you can just leave the server... but then you never race online until you get a good setup.
It's awful game design sadly. Any other game I can work on my car's setups when I'm offline if I choose to do so. Many people are first time Forza players and are learning to tune here.
It's a huge advantage when a veteran already knows how to tune even before joining.
Yeah i did some more research and found out pretty everything you said. Turns out this game isnt what im looking for when it comes to online racing. Even the SP is kind of horrible with the AI. I do like just using it for buying a car and bombing around tracks though lol. I think what i'm looking for is something more sim than this. Maybe ACC is for me.
Thanks for replying.
I don’t bother with multiplayer, but I might after learning this. What you’re saying sounds epically cool. Real race teams don’t have endless time and money to tune setups.
if im not mistaken unless you do track day meetup you dont have endless time to tune your cars in MP. Each race you only get about 16 minutes to tune.
That does sound cool but it's not true.
You definitely *can* save your tunes for each track and load them when you're playing multiplayer on that track. I do it every day. You just have to go in setup manager and load whichever one you want at the start of a multiplayer session
I kinda like that it is limited time for tunes in a certain way, but the problem starts that default tunes are down right terrible.
In AMS2, AC, even ACC, you can have some "locked setup" races where setups cannot be touched and some cars drive really nice. Makes a 100% even playing field where driving is all that matters.
I even had such a decent lap on Barcelona w a Praga R1 to the point ppl were asking for the setup in the comments when it was a fixed setup race.
After the last update I think the AI has improved quite a lot, it is a lot cleaner, and more careful. Sometimes even quite a bit more careful than before to the point where they yield position when side by side if you have the inside line.
If you've spent already the money, you can still have some fun, mess around with it.
I must say, this is more arcade than sim. Many of the things that are common knowledge I've acquired in race car setups do not work here.
Even stuff that comes from games like Assetto Corsa, AC Competizione, Automobilista 2, Project Cars 2, Raceroom Racing experience, even some old rFactor1 games like Automobilista 1 and GTR 2 have some things in common with modern sims regarding setup realism.
Some things work as expected in Forza, others don't.
Sometimes Forza is a bit closer to something like the EA F1 games.
This last patch actually improved it a lot with the wheel calibration... before that using a wheel was a bit messy and weird.
Right now I'm thinking of either LMU (rFactor2 but better) or finally go all out with iRacing and then it's never ending payments, but I have a few friends teasing me to compete there.
For whatever reason I find the default setups put on too much front bar. Reduce that and you’re about 90% there with most cars.
That’s the problem, though, I don’t want a 100% even playing field driver's race.
The history of racing basically boils down to one question, “Is my car faster than your car?” It was never a question of, let’s take these two guys and put them in identical cars and see which guy is better.
The sport of racing is an engineering challenge not which meat servo is better. A great driver can extract more out of the car, but at the end of the day it’s “who built the faster car? How well did they set it up? How well was it prepared? How well did the team react to changing circumstances as the race was executed?”
That is racing. For as much as people say FM is simcade it is one of the most sim like racing experiences available because you BUILD CARS. But as I said I don’t bother with multiplayer. Unfortunately, people eventually figure out the fast cars and setups for each class and it becomes a glorified spec race.
I’m curious. What settings don’t correspond to real life?
For me it's more interesting from the real engineering perspective, on real simulation you can run motec software, get real telemetry out, analyze the movements from suspension, temps on tyres on brakes, etc... Adjust camber accordingly.
I also enjoy a bit doing setups, I used to participate in some AMS2 league before going on vacations and missing some races. Racecraft.Online Prototype3 series over "new to me" South American tracks. Guys were fast, we were beating each others world records on time trial, I made several of my usual videos with hotlap - setup - ffb settings.
We were trading ideas and improving each others setups but on raceday everyone brings their A game, I was winning most of the time by tweaking the setup and adjusting it to my driving style, most of the time worked but by the end they were starting to catch up and I did have some pretty challenging races.
If you know anything about motorsport, the second you have open setups it's not an even playing field, not even close, because just on raw experience without even "trying to learn" someone with a few more years will make much better setups than you.
(unless you really geek out on it)
And TBH, I did some builders multiplayer on some S class I think, with a GT40 I was beating everyone by 10 to 20 seconds left and right and I just did some "automatic tunning" option... and then looked into the car's setup myself.
My biggest problem with the "building a car" is not actually building it, it's that the setup is so much more important to me than I will try to allocate the parts in order for the car to have the setup that I want. (ofc it still needs power or decent tyres... etc)
But sim racing on a serious level, S or A safety rating, 4,900+ skill, to keep there, I need to min max the setups and to always be as competitive as possible and never crash, never spin, almost never lockup. etc. always get pit strategy right... etc...
It's exactly as you say regarding MP, but competing with the AI, the AI is really bad, now it's not as bad but still I'm a bit drawn by the adrenaline of the hectic and chaotic nature of real human competition. I get it that for you vs AI you do have a lot more leeway to play your own unique style.
So for starters the tyre model from Forza Motorsport is flawed and wrong on a fundamental level where the inner middle and outer tire are supposed to be close in temps. They are not, in most sims outer tire is cooler, and the camber adjustments can be very helpful in shaping the tyre, I will give it to Forza they try to be semi-realistic there.
Then tyre compounds do have heavy influence on how the tyre behaves regarding temps and if you get pirelli slick hards on a cold track you will feel a bit on ice all the time.
Anti-roll bars are usually better at unrealistically high values compared to almost every other sim. Aero is always way too hight as well.
In real life you can run literally close to minimal settings (what in a sim would be close to 0, 1 or 2 aero out of 10, or 15 even, for the rear wing adjustments).
And I never seen a Forza racecar setup with 10% rear wing for example.
The brake bias is always wrong as well, doesn't make much sense. Never seen IRL or Sim most race cars going 50/50 or close to that, but it's what I've seen on most Forza setups, and what I've used most of the time.
I've been able to lower the suspension and make the cars skid, but I cannot replicate the certain conditions where the car is too low to the ground, the floor skids on the tarmac and the car looses grip and slides and loses control. This actually describes suspected conditions of one of the most infamous race crashes in the world.
I like it that you can actually add a bit extra brake pressure, but for old cars or street cars, its a bit unrealistic, those cars are supposed to have shi tty brakes, they brake way too well.
In the end, I have learned things when I started sim racing, that they can apply to certain types of car or styles of driving, like RR vs MR vs FR, or like Group C car setups vs GT car setups.
These things translate in varying degrees and %s between Assetto Corsa, Assetto Corsa Competizione, Automobilista 2, Automobilista 1, Raceroom Racing Experience, Project Cars 2, GTR 2... even in old sim bin games like Race07 some of the values on the setup can be not very realistic but the amount of adjustment is not "far fetched" or the way I think about setting up a car in all these games shares similarities and my philosophies share.
In Forza Motorsport, it does have some things that have resemblance and similarities like suspension dampers ... (how could someone get that wrong even...) but there are many things about car setup and adjustment that are a bit unique to Forza Motorsport and make it stand out from the crowd. (Idk about GT7, haven't had consoles in years)
But reminds me of something like Gran Turismo 4, where the setup menu, while somewhat effective in it's own way, it's so skewed that trying to apply anything you learn there elsewhere can be hit or miss. Not everything makes the same sense.
It's almost a bit like the EA F1 games, where the way everything works there can't be meaningfully translated to any sim racing title, you learn things about the F1 games that work inside their own bubble, it's their own way of gameplay.
In Forza it's not so extreme, and I would say you can learn some thing or two, and the best part is if for your the tunning of the car is valuable, for me even without car building, but just setting up, Forza is quite fun.
I did manage some insane lap times in the past when I was playing it every day, but I had to adjust a bit more to Forza and to go back into "real simulation" xD lol
I also had to re-adjust myself a bit more to reality and come out of the "bubble".
But the racing feeling I get in Forza Motorsport multiplayer is unmatched in a sense, I can just jump into a lobby at any time and go racing hard, and fuel and tyre are accelerated to make all the decisions matter.
I think many of the "serious sims" have some "serious lessons" to take from Forza, because despite all it's "obvious flaws", how come then you have such a devoted fanbase?
Even with the terrible PC performance and graphics... ahaha
And to be fair, Forza has improved a lot lately, and I've been trying to find the time to get back for another round.
This is an old record by now, and I've had so many videos I didn't have time to edit it's a pity... (back then I was #26 in the world when that was the "car of the week" or something) (I was #4 in the world for hardcore no assists) https://youtu.be/8BdhmBTRvXw
I do have a bit of hate with the Fomo mechanic, I wanted to mess around with the F40 and I missed that window of oportunity.
It's like I don't have access to all the cars even though I've paid VIP...
Don't let any of the "realism" talk get too much in your head, it's not because I want to be competitive in Assetto or AMS, that I am forbidden to enjoy something a bit more arcady?
And for what it is worth, for the racing games people call arcade, Forza Motorsport is probably the less arcade of all of them.
What other "simcade" options do you have? (ppl used to call project cars 2 a simcade but compared to Forza it is a full blown sim) but other than that... I would say Forza did do many things well for it's target audience. And I've believed in it's improvement, have enjoyed my rides on it hence why I even invested money and time on it.
On PC, what other game of this kind do you even have? Nothing, literally nothing.
This is why they get away with such poor graphics/framerate xD
Nobody is even competing.
Don’t really get this criticism. In real life racing organizations (SCCA or NASA for instance) there is a definite progression from street car to race car for car modification. Now FM simplifies that in stages from street to sport to racing parts, but if you look at the description of what each stage does they make sense.
Yeah motec in a street car ain’t cheap. That really might be the difference here. I want to race street cars modified to race. Your perspective seems to be focused on purpose built race cars.
In real professional Motorsports you’d know all the suspension kinematics for your car, tire data, and have a library of years of back data on whatever particular track you’re at.
FM is exactly like if it put a set of double adjustable shocks on my car and went bombing around the track and tweaked settings. I might have a little data here and there, but not at the level of a pro GT3 team.
Guess which I prefer and is more relevant to me.
Beating people by 10 to 20 seconds is because of the driver, not the car or setup. You probably would have still won in a B class car.
And the biggest fun for me in racing street cars is having to adapt my driving style to suit a particular car’s natural characteristics. At this point I try to tune with the idea of enhancing a car while keeping its personality.
Once again a difference in perspective.
This doesn’t track with my experience. Now FM is very forgiving in how tires stay near their optimum temperature. However, there are real differences between the camber gain of different suspension types and tire temp is consistent with the reported camber across the different suspensions.
FM does smooth out grip vs slip angle of different compounds for gameplay reasons. But as I say, no sim is completely accurate. In reality land 90% of the street cars in EVERY racing sim would boil their brake fluid and cook their brake pads (or both) after about three laps at race pace.
Hardcore sim racers jump up and down about accuracy, but get suddenly quiet when I ask if they actually think they can go out and max perform the race cars they drive in sims in real life.
To think hardcore consumer grade sims don’t make concessions for gameplay is laughable.
Numbers given in FM for bars don’t correspond to any real world value. Not sure how anyone can say they’re too “high.”
Not sure what you mean here. In real life FIA spec cars run special “trimmed out” aero packages for Daytona and Le Mans. In past FMs I remember discussions of which version of a particular car was modeled (the low downforce or higher downforce version). Be that as it may I certainly have run cars trimmed out with no issue. Some cars, even with “Forza Aero” don’t produce downforce.
Yeah this is all kinds of weird in terms of lock up.
Are you talking about dramatic loss if grip from the loss of flow to underbody aerodynamic surfaces? If so FM’s aerodynamic modeling is simplistic. I know for certain that aerodynamic changes from car pitch and roll is not modeled. Basically, making tuning of high downforce cars completely unrealistic. …Doesn’t matter to those of us that stick to street cars.
The racing brake package, by its in game description, changes the brakes to carbon ceramics. At the point you can change the brake pressure there is nothing stock about the system. There is even a visual change in the brake calipers and rotors in game. If you are talking about stock systems, as I said, most of the cars couldn’t last three or four laps in real life. That’s not an issue with FM, but EVERY racing sim.
I find it interesting when people talk about tuning cars in FM most talk about aero, diffs, and maybe springs. When I help people I talk about tire stagger, dampers, and bars. Things, people talk about when tuning real street cars.
Edit to add: What is also interesting to me is how you talk of learning setups as learning car platforms.
The ultimate purpose of car setup is to position the tire optimally throughout the dynamic range of a car’s suspension. An old 911, for instance, that has a semi trailing arm rear will require a complete different suspension setup to a new 911 that is multi link, even though both cars are RR. The old 911 has to contend with toe curves that go positive on rebound vs a new 911 that has tightly controlled camber and toe curves. Now FM doesn’t exactly match the kinematics of every car, but it DOES try to replicate the general characteristics of each type of suspension.
The purpose built race cars of more serious PC sims don’t have to contend with these compromises, as those cars have suspension geometries geared towards racing.
Once again, an interesting difference in perspective.
I tune street cars in AC in a similar manner to FM. Aero dramatically changes how cars both work and how they should be setup.
For as much as you sweat optimum camber I sweat 3hp vs 10lbs. Every FM is different based upon changes in Pi. In FM4, for instance, accel was an underrated value and I would build muscle cars that have lower top speed but a lot of acceleration. Now I find that top speed is undervalued and I’m slowly leaning towards high HP cars that are heavy with a lot of tire. The acceleration is lower than a lighter car, but the tire lets them keep up through turns and the hp means they walk away at the end of straights where it’s hp vs drag instead of hp vs weight.
They should simulate cars that average people actually drive instead of race cars that are the play things of multi millionaires. A Dodge Neon ACR is waaayyy more interesting to me than any GT3 race car.
It doesn’t get to me.
In reality EVERY SINGLE (purpose built) RACE CAR will over heat if it was sitting still in the pits for too long. Street cars have fans for the radiators. Race cars do not (fans impede air flow). No sim models this.
I used to argue on the AC forums that ultra realism was expensive and pointless. After a while it gets down to this. In reality car whatever takes turn whatever and hits a peak g of .89. In sim whatever on the same track with the same car it hits .93. Is the sim then accurate enough to call itself a sim? Especially with the caveat that peak grip can change with weather, driving technique, even a left vs right turn.
Sim racers spend way too much energy talking about realism.
I've sat inside racecars.
but yeah you are way more into the "average joe" with the "tunner mindset" kinda like Fast and furious.
For me that is not "Motorsport". IMSA, WEC, ELMS, BTCC, DTM, JGTC, Indy 500, F1 to F4, British GT Championship, GT World Challenge, etc... these are Motorsports.
Any driver has a driving style, you can adapt a bit but there are limits unless you think you're better than Max Verstappen (or any other world champion) and even then he does have preferences.
Each racing category or organisation will have their own ruleset and BoP and you find fun in dealing with that particular aspect of many "fake rulesets" from a game, which is ok.
Depending on what you want, and how much money you have, again you have no idea what you're talking about even a week ago I saw some stuff that costed 3000€ to add to the car.
you can use stickers, the huge amount of ducktape I see in the garages to fix random ♥♥♥♥ on GT3 and LMP cars is hilarious. There are also temp stickers. Teams will use whatever is available that is the most effective at the lowest cost.
In Forza Motorsport you can go from winning all your MP races to never getting a podium on any of them just from the setup alone.
So what I've seen online and what I've used in the past year was trying to make I M O parts of the tire have similar temps to each other, and adjust the cambers and pressures to help match that.
In plenty other sims that do I M O, you want the outer part a bit colder than the inner part.
It was a minor pet peeve that I had to remember every time. And I can see in some other sims I do have more freedom on how I can setup a car regarding this, and my driving style will have a bigger impact.
If I want I can lose 1sec or 2 secs a lap but save tyre, save fuel, but in Forza you can "try" but the tyre will degrade regardless and fuel is almost the same as well. You driving style has very little impact in these vehicle dynamics.
This ties really well with the previous post, and here you 100% agree with me.
Street cars are not race cars, they do not perform well when pushed hard for long.
There are way too many examples of people who came from sim racing to racing in real life, you're digging a hole for yourself there.
I just went karting the other day, set the fastest lap of the day on a busy day without even trying, and I'm huge 2meter dude at 100kg weight.
There are no "hardcore sim racers" in Forza btw, if they were hardcore they would be on iRacing for sure lol. You seem to love Forza but hate sim racing as a whole.
Nope, you didn't get it. I'm talking about having the suspension so low that metalic parts of the car become the contact point and the balance point between the car and the tarmac, this can have very strong unsettling effects even if for short periods of time.
It's not that the tyres loose 100% to 0% grip right away, but it's the result of the suspension bottoming out way too far.
You didn't get what I've said, I said that even roadcars without upgrades many times brake too well, vintage or old cars also brake too well. It's not about locking or not locking, it's just that you're spending a bit little time on the brake pedal in certain cars, where it feels a bit wrong. It's not everywhere or all cars. Just another pet peeve when you expect certain cars to underperform in one area. Even older race cars.
Depends if you are tunning race cars or road cars but I already know that you are more interested in tunning cars instead of "min maxing" purpose built race cars.
And that is your valid interest and opinion. For me there is no interest in ever driving a Dodge Neon in my sim rig and therefore the career mode is quite uninteresting at times because I mostly enjoy race cars, replicating Motorsports, and Motorsport driving technique.
Even with vintage cars, I do enjoy heel and toe with H shifter, (i even made a tutorial on that)
You are wrong, with a hot engine if you stop certain cars with a small radiator opening on the setup, some cars will blow up the engine, in AMS2 for example.
So again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Again you come out very defensive like Forza is above any constructive criticism and I think that kind of fanboy is the worst for the Franchise because many of the updates and the improvements on Forza that made it so much better have come from lots of criticism and feedback from the comunity.
I think if there are consistencies across all racing games, they should be kept in a way that makes every game make sense somehow, after all it's always the same thing cars.
Regarding exact IRL values, many sims will have faster or slower laptimes, faster or slower top speeds. Nothing is 100% realistic but you do want some resemblance of that.
Like if you have huge lockups, crashes and spins, your soft pirelli tires should be flat spotted, squared out, or even have a slow puncture.
Did you know that iRacing if you go too aggressive and take too much kerb in the Watkins Glen chicanes you accumulate damage on the cars?
That is a level of realism that came from real life drivers criticising that in the sim, sim racers lines are way more agressive than they should be over kerbs because it doesn't get punished.
Man I've praised many good things about Forza, and I'm no hardcore sim racer and there is no war between those groups of people except in your own head.
We can all celebrate our differences, talk and criticise on improving each other.
Forza can improve things about the car dynamic to make it feel more authentic and sim titles can improve things about multiplayer and penalty system.
We have more to win from trading ideas and bringing qualities across different platforms and even outright copy the ♥♥♥♥ you see your "adversaries" do that you think it's good, if it's good and an advantage, take it for yourself.
There is a need for a win-win mentality.
Not for a hate, lose-lose mentality.
You were talking about realism in the wrong forums, if you were in AC... should've went to iRacing forums then ahahah
In the end it boils down that I want to be able to bring my skills across titles and have similar skills and similar knowledge work...
If I go to some Need for Speed or Grid or whatever game, all my skills are wasted, I have to re-learn how to drive if I want to be good and MP competitive in some random game, and I even need to re-learn how to setup cars.
Then I have a bunch of other games where everything relates. I guess I want to stick with those.
And still, Forza Motorsport has many things done right that you can relate to more realistic tittles, to the point where when people want to call it arcade I would say Forza Motorsport is the less arcade of all racing games so far.
It's trying to lean closer into the "motorsport" part in many areas and that again is the reason it got my interest.
In the end you're the one who asked about realism, I'm still talking about setup conventions for racing games to make them more accessible to a larger crowd and make it easier to jump between titles.
At the end of the day I'm focused on gaming experience and accessibility.
Also took me months to figure out the FFB sliders until they released a really nice description in the forums.
And if you're not even into competitive MP, questioning me about realism or accuracy is all a bit pointless.
For example in AC there are some shenanigans going on with the dampers on some cars, you can literally run min bump + max rebound on some cars, AC and ACC... and the cars will be amazing lolol it's just a joke to get mad over realism if I tell you your game in 1 specific point is not realistic... don't worry, no need to be offended by that.
I've been playing a bit more again, and I've noticed tunes have changed a bit over time, I'm still getting used to the new meta.
They have also improved the force feedback and wheel support a lot!
With the Steering calibration range.
Before that I had no idea what was the "ideal 1:1" range for each car, I would just adjust on the Fanatec software by feel.
And also last month Turn10 released the best explanation so far I've ever seen regarding Advanced Input sliders for FFB feel. This is really really good to help people with wheels:
https://support.forzamotorsport.net/hc/en-us/articles/21423900676371-Forza-Motorsport-Advanced-Wheel-Tuning
It seems we are talking across each other.
I am talking about how the screws hold the wing on the car.
In FM you adjust the aero elements by setting the literal pounds of downforce (unknown reference speed). It’s impossible to setup a real car with that level of granularity. Real cars have aero packages that are then adjusted with wing angle, wickers, tape, etc.
Take NASCAR as example. In game, for Daytona, I run the car completely trimmed out. Is that accurate or possible in reality? Well it depends which aero package is on the car. Is it the Super Speed Way package or the Short Course package? I frankly have no idea which is modeled.
What downforce package is on the car matters when discussing how much downforce a car should have when set to the low downforce setting of whatever the package is.
I’m not a “tuner” and don’t have that mindset. I just find modern sports car racing boring (GT3 especially).
A car that is built to perform in a particular racing series according to a particular set of agreed upon rules is a race car. Whether you can watch it on TV or not is a question of sponsorship.
That’s been the entire point of Forza ever since FM1. What happens when you race a muscle car against a Japanese tuner against an exotic? That’s the game. They even made a TV show to promote FM2 where they did exactly that. FM has never been about emulating a professional race series down to the nth detail.
Funny, I edited my original comment not long after it was made to say, “It’s not cheap to put motec on a street car” and it isn’t. But hey, it cost is no object you can mod a street car to put F1 cars to shame if you really want to. How much remains of the original car and if you can even say they are related is of course something else.
I was so curious about your original post on this that I had to test it. I don’t care what other sims do, I care about reality.
Since I’m doing the FM3 career series I used the R8 that you have to use for those career racing for testing.
Stock the car had roughly -1 front and -.5 rear camber. Through turns the car would gain about a degree. I don’t know if that is correct with the real car. Anyway, the outside of the tire would heat up more than the inside through turns.
With the racing suspension I set -2 front and -1.5 rear. Tire heat was more even. I then set -3 front and -2.5 rear and the insides were hotter than the outside. Keep in mind that on the real car, according to R8 forums, you can’t go past -2 without a camber kit.
As I said before FM tracks with reality. Keep in mind that on asymmetric performance tires the dry high grip part of the tire is on the outside not the inside.
If you want tire temps as you described use more camber. Street car geometry is not race car geometry.
I suspect they did that for gameplay purposes. God only knows what compounds they are even simulating.
Show me one person that went from sim racing to racing a Prototype with no additional training or on track experience and had pace equal to a seasoned professional.
Never said there was.
For the record I don’t “love” FM. Never owned FM 5, 6, and 7. I find FM23 enjoyable, though there are of course elements that are lacking.
Where I get into “discussions” with sim racers on these forums is mainly from them trying to turn FM into something it is not. FM has always been about building up street cars and racing in a semi-serious manner and nothing more. It is a console game made to run on at least a Series S. As an analogy it’s like taking a Mustang GT and being mad about it for not driving like a 911 GT3. That is not the failing of the Mustang it was never meant to be a 911 GT3.
As for sim racers in general, I have always found it interesting how many of them take the hobby extremely seriously, but have little interest or knowledge of cars or racing in general. As you yourself said, Motorsports are the pro series you can watch on TV and not whatever racing is going on locally, even if it’s on the same tracks as the pro series.
My first love is aviation, not cars or racing. On a sim pilot forum if someone has a question about the physics model, people start using high level math to explain what’s happening, pilots who have flown that particular aircraft often step up, etc.
With sim racing it is often nothing more than “this doesn’t feel right.” When I ask, what is your basis for knowing what “right” is in most cases their reference is to another sim that is assumed correct by the sim racer.
Of course I didn't get it that was why I was asking what you meant. Anyway, while it is obvious that suspension travel is at least generalized for each car, my best guess is that interference between the road and the physical under body is not. Who knows why?
Of course (some) road cars and vintage cars brake too well. I already said most cars in the game would have their brakes fail after three or four laps. In reality most cars would be overheating their water or oil as well.
Here’s the deal. Tires stop the car, not brakes. Brakes convert kinetic energy into heat. If you can lock the brakes additional braking capacity won’t stop the car any sooner. If you took a decent sports car and put the same tires as a GT3 car the two cars will stop in a similar distance from say 40mph (no downforce influence). But the street braking system would fail if subjected to the pressures of actual racing.
Just think about what you’re saying. You’re saying some cars stop too well, this is inaccurate. I’m saying few of the cars in the entire GAME would even survive the session. That’s not just a problem with FM23, but every single sim that has street cars that aren’t track focused.
Over stress an aircraft in most flight sims and the plane breaks. Over stress a car in a racing sim and many sim racers don’t even think about it, but then they write pages on how a car and track they never driven doesn’t “feel” right.
Starting to get why I poke sim racers from time to time?
“Min maxing purpose built race cars.”
You’re talking like a gamer. There's a guy on these forums who crewed for years in the SCCA. I respect him, but we got into it a few times mostly because we were talking past each other. Min maxing for him was throwing away all the parts of a street car you don’t need, and buying the cheapest chassis you could find to build into a purpose built race car.
Gamers, by the literal definition of the word gamer seek to “game” systems often by extensive practice through grinding and trail and error. In many cases they really aren’t seeking to race in realistic fashion, but to find the edge cases in physics models that let them win all the time. Once every “gamer” discovers the trick you get a glorified spec series. Same thing happens in FM when people figure out the fast cars and a game that has hundreds of cars effectively in multiplayer turns into a spec series with one or two per class.
And there are a half dozen other racing games that give you exactly what you are looking for. FM23 is not trying to be them.
Ironically the Neon ACR can quality as a Vintage race car.
https://acrracing.tripod.com/Racing%20History.htm#:~:text=The%20introduction%20of%20the%20Neon,events%20from%201995%20to%201997.
Cool, didn’t know that about AMS2. Might eventually pick that game up. It does have old CART cars…though hardly any street cars.
But, since I am not God I don’t claim total knowledge of everything. It is also tedious and time consuming to write, “for as far as I’m aware” after each comment. That should be assumed.
I know back and forth discussion and debate has become a practical bloodsport in the age of the internet wherein no one can give an inch. But, I consider this a respectful talk, let’s keep it that way.
Once again back and forth discussion and debate is a bloodsport in the age of the internet.
I’m not being defensive. I’ve agreed with you on some points (brake pressure, brake bias, chassis contact with the road), criticized FM in others (simplistic aero model), and disagreed on other points with reasons why I disagree (tire camber).
And I’ve given my own criticism and feedback before the game even released (car xp system, live service gameplay model).
That is complicated.
Mario Kart is racing, as is F-Zero. Neither have anything to do with reality. Racing series around the would pull their hair out trying to performance balance the cars to try make the “racing” as close and thus entertaining as possible. The end result is the race by race BOP adjustments in GT3.
I find GT3 boring because it is impossible to tell what the superior car is (the point of pure racing). What made battles like the old Viper vs Corvette or 911 vs M3 or R8 prototypes vs everyone fun to watch was that you could see the intensity of the engineers working to make the car better each race. Cars like the M3 GTR (among others) are the direct result of that.
Sim racers say they want 100% reality, but do they really? I want 100% reality because I enjoy bombing around a track by myself. I’d argue that the average sim racer says they want reality, and the very detailed and expensive to make PC sims reflect that; however, I suspect that but for ego and perception, they’d be much happier with 95% reality (if they could even tell the difference) with better and more entertaining racing. FM players constantly complain about the match making and penalty systems for a reason.
I’ve driven the Glen, fun flowing track.
Now, would sim racers have noticed if real racers hadn’t pointed that out? They say they want 100% reality, but do they?
To stop picking of sim racers for a moment. There is a persistent issue with the F/A-18 in the DCS community. In game and on the real jet there is a switch that lets the aircraft pull 33% more G (if you know what you're looking for you can see this switch pulled in Top Gun: Maverick). The switch is meant for emergencies and does over stress the aircraft (it won't break up). Real fighter pilots say that switch is never pulled, even in combat, and that if you use it in a dogfight you're flying the jet wrong. It's quite ridiculous watching people who have never flown a plane in their lives, let alone a tactical fighter, argue with people who have done exactly that.
Once again, just because "hardcore" whoever says they want perfect realism doesn't mean that actually do or would recognize it when they get it.
My point is a singular one that I’ve mentioned many times.
There is no war in my head between sim racers and casuals. The real conflict is between the “hardcore,” their wants and desires vs market reality. Hardcore gamers want top shelf graphics with amazing physics models, track and car models, perfect net code, no bugs, and a UI that is stylish and artistic. All that cost money, time, and is very complicated to build. The hardcore are their own worst enemy. They want the best everything, but they should be asking what is “good enough?”
If FM23 was bug free, had top of the line physics, but looked like an Xbox 360 game would the hardcore still want it? People told me I was crazy for enjoying FM23 on my potato computer playing at 1080p at 60 fps at medium settings. I eventually bought an Xbox Series X, mainly to play my old games, and now I play FM23 on my 4K TV at 60 fps. Does it look better, yes? Does it make me it enjoy it more…nah, not really.
The hardcore wanted a “super” Nintendo Switch and Nintendo gave it to them with the Switch 2…now people whine about the price. The paradigm has always been Performance, Cost, Reliability -> pick two. But the hardcore demand everything and are amazed they get nothing. Mostly what I do is point out why.
What else do you think this discussion is?
And what will you sacrifice to get that? Iracing (for point of argument) gives everything, but it ain’t cheap. Me personally I’d sacrifice graphics, but that’s me.
That’s a major reason why I don’t even bother with serious racing sims anymore. Setting up a wheel is a pain.
Once again, for as much as sim racers talk about realism they can’t help gaming the game.
They shouldn’t feel too bad though, if there is one thing racers are good at is cheating or stretching the spirit of the rules.
I'm not
This is something that I 100% agree that if you want to win "that badly" then you will try to win "by any means" (except literal cheating)
But I agree with you in 1 of your first posts, IRL track time is limited and "gaming" too much on the sim takes the "fun element" out of it.
In real life, people need to think fast and adapt quickly. The slowest to adapt loses.
For me it's quite the opposite, in many serious sims I can leave every slider at 0 just have FFB strength and everything works fine, in many cases actually feels really good. Everything else is a bonus.
(But I've went for years with a Logitech G923, then TLCMs, then TSPC... on lower end gear settings can make or brake the experience way more. After getting a Fanatec Podium DD1 and V3s... and recently I got gifted some Heusinkveld Sprints...)
The gear only makes sense if you already know what you're after, regarding feel.
But for me, my higher end gear has more options to adjust but it is the easier to adjust.
(It does have some parallel with music, on cheap guitar amps everyone keeps tweaking and it never sounds really good, settings here and there, mods here and there. I bought a vintage Fender tube amp it sounds good on all settings, regardless of the settings. It's the best possible amp I could buy. Anything more expensive would just be a collectors item)
It's the same w force feedback and sim racing gear in general.
I wouldn't mind if FM looked like the first AC, I think I would even enjoy it a bit more due to optimisation.
But let's not fool ourselves, Forza does have a certain appeal on it's look, it's a console game ffs ofc it has a "gamey" feel to it instead of "photorealistc" but the lighting fx and shading are done in a way to make it appealing to a bigger audience.
I did agree w some ideas of that paragraph but remember that in FM they recycle models from 10 years ago, at launch wheel support was bad, had bugs, I mean there was just so much wrong... If I had paid full price and they didn't fix much I would have felt scammed.
But another game that somehow suffered really hard was actually Project Cars 2, the only sim racing game w changeable weather, day night cycles, career mode, etc... But even tho AMS2 fixed that engine's ffb, idk what they did but PC2 ffb is a bit weak, and their internal ffb code clips early while still sending not much force to the wheels.
FFB is a make it or break it, and in 2017 too many people had weaker wheels not DDs, which made it even worse, everyone said the ffb was bad.
TBH without changing much the ffb feels better than FM for example, but imagine that 10 years ago ppl slammed that tittle to the ground. It did have a bit of time in the light but also they released so many DLCs instead of fixing some bugs and the consistency of the content was spotty.
I'm not that into "hardcore" tbh, otherwise I wouldn't be doing casual racing in Forza.
Its started out that in MP you have limited 16min to deal with the car's setup, but you can quit the race before start, and just keep adjusting jumping between sessions.
For me it's a waste but I've found a solution, which is to save the setup and do single player session where I work alone on the setup if need be. But all the menus all that time wasting and convolution just to work for a bit on a setup so that after 1 year away I'm not back of the pack...
And I mean, with the wrong setup you can drive as perfectly as you can with a wheel that a keyboard guy will beat you. or if you have the perfect setup you win by 30 seconds.
Setup and Pit strategy will make or break a race here.
Most people on most games and sims like GT racing (GT3 now but) in general, that trend started in Gran Turismo 1 and 2. I used to love 98s Toca 2 British Touring Cars too.
In reality people want close racing. And for that you need BOP. If 1 car is faster obviously the grid will only have that car, because why race when you don't want to win? That is a "track meetup".
GT3s tend to have certain things that make them accessible. They are not very light, twitchy, nervous, and oversteery in nature. rly good ABS and TC, ppl adapt easily to them.
everyone has been going crazy watching WEC rn because the races were a bit close, and the last lap of Le Mans you had lots of cars in the same lap at the end of 24h which is quite rare.
For me that "engineering" you do yourself with your setup, your driving style. and everybody has their own feel to it. even the best in the world have preferences and need to know how to best apply their skill set.
I did enjoy doing MP in GT4 and GT2 but also on the featured races, plenty of prototype races, vintage le mans, and even going to open multiclass or open S with some tuned cars.
Some misconceptions many people had bad experiences in sim racing titles of the past because stock setups were all wrong, and if you didn't adjust tires or dive into doing a decent setup, you couldn't finish a lap without going off track.
And many times people think realism = difficulty and that is something I completely disagree. We can see by tyre model analysis that in real life many times people do have more "leeway" and "freedom".
PPL do say they want that, but do they? while we want amazing tight races, making the limit a bit further into the comfort zone is just that, in a game, ppl will still min max and try to be on the threshold of that limit all the time, no matter where it sits. And that is the mentality of race drivers as well.
Ok then my interpretation on some of your arguments might have been a bit skewed and I was under the wrong impression, my bad.
I was just not familiar with Dodge cars in general because I live in Portimão, only in the last decade some cars became a bit more common. Before that it would be a rarity.
But I do see the interest in an affordable way to race. This seems way more affordable than what they did in the BTCC era.
I used to see those cars on the road, Nissan Primera, Volvo S40, Audi A4 (a friend had), Renault Laguna (my uncle had), Vauxhall Vectra, Honda Accord, Peugeot 406, Alfa Romeo 156, and the ugliest of all, Ford Mondeo ahahah. I a couple of days you would see every single car from that championship on the road.
I get what you're saying but then even F1 teams are gamers. Everyone wants to be the winner, and if you find an edge to win all the time , you will do it, and when you get tired of winning easy, you'll try to find a worse car, apply what you've learned, and still win from a disadvantage point.
See the Gran Turismo 4 modders and those challenges where they try to beat the game with crappy cars.
I've even recently raced there on the emulator, where I did the hardest championship from GT4 without upgrading the car to avoid such unfair advantage.
And contrary to the "gamer" side you think I have, there is also a grassroots racing side, where people share setups, share information, real life drivers in low end IRL racing do tend to share ideas on tire pressures and to be very warm and welcoming, they want to have fun racing and they don't want you struggling, they want to beat you at your best.
On my channel, I constantly share setups, ffb settings, even measures on my driving position, etc... even today just posted another FM video with the setup and FFB settings at the end.
In assetto many times if there were no fast drivers qualifying for a race and I saw slow laptimes, I would start last, to give others a chance.
Makes sense, but here I see we were actually talking across each other while kinda agreeing on the topic.
For me, it's not the brakes getting trashed after 2 or 3 laps, it's that braking at those speeds that hard, on a street car, the brakes should loose performance over the course of a single lap and be already a bit dead on the second lap.
And some games to simulate this better than others, but most sims are focused on racecars and using that model all brakes are good, all tires are good.
And I do agree that the contact from tyres is what actually allows the braking. But once again in most racing sims you do have street tyres vs racing tyres...
But this opens up a whole another level and can of worms, which is modern slicks vs bias ply tyres... and tyre physics and then that is like a black hole where all sim racers go for eternity lolol xD
TBH, I think many games try to model more after 1 or another, but it's rare to see both styles of tyre very well modelled into any single game. And many people complain ffb or physics feels like ♥♥♥♥ but sometimes is just not understanding the tyres.
Modern pirelli tires give less momentum feel before breaking loose, they have a different way of sliding, and they are way more sensitive than what ppl expect and what is represented in 90% of sims and sim racing.
Bias ply are what actually make many of those overpowered vintage cars fun to drive, even though you slide them, the tyres survive, you feel the loss of grip better and have fun correcting it. In a very abbreviated sense.
You poke sim racers because I would guess, sim racers want both characteristics of the tyres described above, but they are antagonistic and do not coexist.
Also I do think many simulators drove away many of the casual crowd if the driving model was leaning towards to the difficult side, uncontrollable slides, kerbs of death, lack of "tutorial" or explanations. Just jumping into a sim w barely any preparation can be a daunting task for many. Not to mention navigating certain UIs, figuring out how to do basic things and just the UI.
Forza, even though I hate the load times and screens and so many loads everywhere, does provide a much more simplified streamlined and accessible experience.
And I think the madness engine tried to go in that direction with PC2, now AMS2 is peaking, but at first these things were a bit ill received by sim racers.
It's like "back in my day I had DOS, or installed win95 and all the drivers... and only people who know how to do that deserve to game on a computer" ahahaha
It's like rFactor2 is so great in the physics, but I can't even figure out how to make it have basic UI elements that I want, I remember I installed it and have like 10 or 20 hours on it. Horrible experience to use RF2, but its so bad its not even funny.
I do agree that it by the end you get many people who are chasing the smell of the oxygen atoms in the air lolol.
My pet peeve with FM was more on how much I had to relearn instead of just going about setups the way I was used to. It's like I either play it every week or month or I risk forgetting and every time I come back it's like a completely new game that I have to learn to play competing like I want to compete.
And in many other sims I do not have to do that much of an effort to jump from car to car, series to series, game to game... I can be driving 70s GTs in Assetto w heel and toe, and I go for GT3 in ACC, then go for prototypes in AMS2... or GT... or whatever, it just works.
I get the same "feel" I understand lockup, oversteer, sliding, understeer, all the same, I feel the dynamics, I can setup the cars accordingly... every day I can jump on a different game and car... even going into something like a 20 year old game, Live for Speed, there is a certain familiarity in the driving and the ffb feel. I like that a lot.
It feels that no matter the game, you're still working on yourself regarding driving skill, setup knowledge. Then I go to Portimão track I see the races and I understand what I can see.
I've actually personally documented quite a few differences of my own and some things that most sims actually get wrong from reality.
In many cars, and specially high downforce high Gs you do need physical training and some specific preparation, but you have more than just Daniel Morad and James Baldwin, there were some bigger lists of people but I do not delve too much into that. And it started 20 years ago with those Gran Turismo programs.
Many people even find it somewhat easier to understand what is really happening in real life, compared to the sim.
So this actually checks out , I was trying to figure out the pressures and camber based of my ideas from realistic sims but once I relearned about FM setups, I just put the right pressure and mess around with the cambers a bit.
Before I would look at the telemetry and try to make some sense.
I do get that it was a Gran Turismo trend to actually "toy" with cars and create all these sorts of improbable scenarios and use the game, Forza Motorsport in this case as a playground and show case for doing wild things you could imagine with so many cars, and that has a unique appeal.
When I was a kid that was my jam with the GT1 and 2.
But you see, Forza does have certain qualities, there are many moments where with a good setup I can trail brake deeper into a corner than in some other games, and that I find cool and realistic. The FFB does feel it has some delay or lag, but does provide information, it feels they were close to making it really good. The cars are fun to drive, the MP racing is close, the ranking is what it is but it's better than nothing and lobbies are full all the time.
This in a sim racing title would be any sim racers dream, many don't find it. Then if you find it, it's "too hardcore", you do 1 race a week and have 6 days of prep for each race...
Forza Motorsport is still a story of success while deeply flawed and criticised in many areas. The Fomo loop in career street cars that I don't care did tick me off wrong, because I've missed on many cars that I wanted (no time to play) and some other times I played and got the cars I wanted but I didn't enjoy the racing, it was a chore.
What I've seen live in ELMS when it started raining was the guys rushing in the pits to change aero parts in the front of the LMP cars. I think in 2023 it rained so hard it got red flagged for at least 1 hour if not more.
I get the idea that you are saying , it's just that for me this added another layer of complexity and franky some confusion because I came here used to some other conventions that are used across so many other games, and here I find these adjustments a bit more unique.
But if I went into something like Grid Legends or NFS... I would bleed my eyes out right? XD ahaha
The thing is that I do enjoy Forza in my own way, just like you do yours. And sometimes we all wish things worked in the way we would expect them to.
(Specially the FFB, at least now they finally added wheel calibration... so much better now)