"Optimal" vs. . . you know..what I can do

[Jaggid Edje]

Been playing for about a week, spending my time so far just going for achievements and googling as I had questions.

but something I've noticed as I read things is that there's a lot of information that is all about "most optimal" and "most efficient" but, in practice...that's just not how the maps are laid out.

As an example, building pastures/orchards/farms, there's the optimal sizes for maximum worker efficiency, land usage, etc. But terrain really doesn't tend to cooperate.

Like in my current game, where I'm gong for all the achievements related to farms, orchards, pastures, the space to make these things optimal/most efficient is just not there close to my starting area, so I'm settling for "close enough". Got pastures that are 20x19 instead of 20x20 for example.

The First achievement I chose to knock out was Mountain Man... talk about having to learn to make good use of space. I give props to the guy that actually did 100% of the achievements on that small, harsh valley map. There was no way to make any of the food related things (except fishing) optimal on the map I got for that.

I'm just curious, is this the way we all play, or do people do many people do a LOT of rerolling their seeds to get good starting areas with nice, massive open flat areas? Seems like that's not that common (absent mods).

[dixiechow]

I for one have restarted many times until I got a map that I considered OK. That's not to say it was perfect. Banished is just like the real world.....it can get messy. "Optimal" and "efficient" are hard to come by so you just "go with the flow". So what if you can't get a 20x20 "optimal" pasture. A 20x19 or 19x19 work! So, be creative! And, keep going for those achievements!

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

...
I'm just curious, is this the way we all play, or do people do many people do a LOT of rerolling their seeds to get good starting areas with nice, massive open flat areas? Seems like that's not that common (absent mods).

Use this: https://banishedinfo.com/tools/size-calculator

Notice how it's set up in a grid? You can input whatever size you want to get the optimal number of workers. (There's one for pasters and one for orchards, IIRC, too.) Basically, it's a "squares" thing. Also, when you set up a farm that isn't "square" you'll get better efficiency if it's narrower East/West rather than North/South due to the fact that farmers move along the East/West rows and have to transition to the next row before they continue. Faster row transitions = more efficiency. (BUT, don't get too hung up on optimal efficiency. What you need is "enough" and that's... enough. :))

The colored squares are visual references for optimal sizes starting from the top-left square and dragging down towards bottom right. (Most players tend to have a generally preferred size and just memorize that/those.)

The terrain tools in Banished are fair. But, they won't do as much as some of the terrain tools in mods and they can't deal at all with certain terrain issues. I use the Colonial Charter mod and its terrain tools are pretty good. They're basically as good as it gets for Banished, at least. (Note: Any time you use terrain tools, always save first. Always. Some terrain actions can bug out and you may not have any "Undo" capability as a result.)

Also, Colonial Charter has special Pastures for mountainous/hilly terrain. Farms/Orchards, maybe too. (If so, i don't use them, just the Pastures.) Pastures are a bit different than other sorts of plots and really need that sort of option. (Colonial Charter is a sort of "mod-pack" so these other pasture types and terrain tools may be found in other mods, too.)

PS: I "reroll" but I really don't know how "random" random actually is. :) A LOT of longtime players have favorite "seeds" and you can find these in posts all over the place.

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Also, when you set up a farm that isn't "square" you'll get better efficiency if it's narrower East/West rather than North/South due to the fact that farmers move along the East/West rows and have to transition to the next row before they continue. Faster row transitions = more efficiency. (BUT, don't get too hung up on optimal efficiency. What you need is "enough" and that's... enough. :))

Sweet, I didn't notice that about the East/West-North/South thing, that's useful info! I already have used the calculator you linked, have it bookmarked in steam even seeing as I tend to visit it regularly. Even have used the Cemetery one. haha

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Also, Colonial Charter has special Pastures for mountainous/hilly terrain. Farms/Orchards, maybe too. (If so, i don't use them, just the Pastures.) Pastures are a bit different than other sorts of plots and really need that sort of option. (Colonial Charter is a sort of "mod-pack" so these other pasture types and terrain tools may be found in other mods, too.)

PS: I "reroll" but I really don't know how "random" random actually is. :) A LOT of longtime players have favorite "seeds" and you can find these in posts all over the place.

So looking forward to using Colonial Charter once I finish my current game. I have it installed already. :-D

As far as seeds go, I actually have used one I found in an old thread. I read a post from a guy who did 100% of the achievements all on the small, harsh, mountain map needed for Mountain Man and he included the map seed he used. So I did that achievement with that seed. (And I'm amazed that he somehow got every achievement on that tiny freaking map...)

My current game I used my phone number as the seed. LOL

[Jaggid Edje]

Oh, hey, just thought of a question related to that East-South/North-West thing, is that true for Orchards as well?

Edit...just realized what a stupid question that is with how tree spacing is east-west vs. north south. Doesn't even make sense to make one with the width the other way.

[28rommel]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

... Sweet, I didn't notice that about the East/West-North/South thing, that's useful info! I already have used the calculator you linked, have it bookmarked in steam even seeing as I tend to visit it regularly. Even have used the Cemetery one. haha

Since you brought up efficiency with the Cemetery, I just want to make sure you know about the special rule when building it. If you are building a Cemetery that is rectangular (not a perfect square), you must always make sure that the main entrance into the Cemetery (you can see the faint image of it before you release it to be built) is always on the longest side of the rectangle. You can rotate the Cemetery entrance (by pressing the "R" key, I think), before you release it to be built. Very important, because if you place the main entrance on the short side of the rectangle, you can end-up getting a significant smaller amount of cemetery plots in your Cemetery.

(And you know about the special rule for Orchards right? The special direction they must be built in? I'm not talking about Crop Fields, but Orchards.)

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by 28rommel:

Since you brought up efficiency with the Cemetery, I just want to make sure you know about the special rule when building it. If you are building a Cemetery that is rectangular (not a perfect square), you must always make sure that the main entrance into the Cemetery (you can see the faint image of it before you release it to be built) is always on the longest side of the rectangle. You can rotate the Cemetery entrance (by pressing the "R" key, I think), before you release it to be built. Very important, because if you place the main entrance on the short side of the rectangle, you can end-up getting a significant smaller amount of cemetery plots in your Cemetery.

(And you know about the special rule for Orchards right? The special direction they must be built in? I'm not talking about Crop Fields, but Orchards.)

I didn't realize that about cemetaries, so thanks for the info. I did know about the entrance and how you can rotate to change where it is, but I wasn't aware you want to always have it on the "long" side.
So far...I have always built them it that way, but only because I'm OCD, and it just looks more tidy to do it that way...so thanks for the information. I'm going to add it to my notes for the game.

Regarding orchards, what do you mean about "special direction" f? Can I change the orientation of which way spacing is x3 vs. x2 by how I drag the mouse? Or do you just mean whether to build them east-west or north-south for length?

[28rommel]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

... Regarding orchards, what do you mean about "special direction" f? Can I change the orientation of which way spacing is x3 vs. x2 by how I drag the mouse? Or do you just mean whether to build them east-west or north-south for length?

Here is the Banished Info .com, webpage link, that discusses the orientation of Orchards.
Every map generated, technically has a direction (north, east, south and west). Use the minimap to determine direction.
https://banishedinfo.com/tools/size-calculator/orchard

Basically, when creating Orchards, make sure the longest-sides are facing north and south.
Otherwise you get less trees, which means you get less fruit/nuts for the same amount of land.
The most common/efficient size for players to build are 15x4. I highly recommend you use this size for all your Orchards.

PS: One thing I did when I found-out about the special Cemetery and Orchard rules was to test it myself (out of curiosity). Try it in your town. SAVE YOUR GAME BEFORE DOING THIS. Then build two Cemeteries about 10x20 with the main entrance on the long and short side of this rectangle. Once completed click on them, and look to see how many cemetery plots are available in each.

Do the same with a Orchard. Build one 15x4 oriented in an east/west direction and one in a south/north direction. You will see how you have more sapling trees in one of them versus not so many in the other. After your test simply re-load you saved game, and all your testing (wasted time and resources) will not have happened.

[Jaggid Edje]

Oh, yah, I knew about that with orchards.

I figured it out on my current game, actually, because I had two orchards right next to each other with the same size (15x4) but different orientation...around year 20 I was like.."wait...that orchard has more trees than that other one...", and then it clicked that the spacing is based on compass direction rather than which way the orchard is longer.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain it though, it may be useful for someone else in the future (and it would have been useful for me just yesterday... LOL).

P.S. I just knocked out two more achievements. Only 6 more to go before I can start doing mods!

[olympe]

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Also, when you set up a farm that isn't "square" you'll get better efficiency if it's narrower East/West rather than North/South due to the fact that farmers move along the East/West rows and have to transition to the next row before they continue. Faster row transitions = more efficiency.

I think that particular "observation" is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, to be honest. Either way, the farmer has to enter each and every single square twice during harvest - once for harvesting and once for starting a new row. Which pretty much adds up to the same number.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by olympe:

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Also, when you set up a farm that isn't "square" you'll get better efficiency if it's narrower East/West rather than North/South due to the fact that farmers move along the East/West rows and have to transition to the next row before they continue. Faster row transitions = more efficiency.

I think that particular "observation" is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, to be honest. Either way, the farmer has to enter each and every single square twice during harvest - once for harvesting and once for starting a new row. Which pretty much adds up to the same number.

It's a "min/max" strategy, that's all. I don't particularly care about it, but some players really like to min/max efficiency in building games.

The reasoning is that Farmers don't alternate starting points for harvesting rows. They harvest each row from left-to-right. (Or right to left, don't remember) They will harvest a row from left to right then, upon reaching the far right, will walk back to the far left of the next row and then start harvesting. Reducing that walking distance to the other side of the next row is the "efficiency saver" here, whether or not you think its "B.S."

I don't know what you mean about the farmer having to enter "each and every single square twice during harvest. Which pretty much adds up to the same number."

As I wrote above, I don't really care much about this method and don't pay much attention to it in my own play, but it's there for players who are fiercely playing a min/max sort of efficiency game.

I play with Colonial Charter and generally try to have my hauling needs for Farming done by Laborers in order to keep the Farmer's harvesting rather than hauling. That and building generally efficient plots near barns is about all I really care about and haven't noticed anything significant in terms of inefficiency. That doesn't mean it's there, it just means it doesn't bother me...

PS: You'll find plenty of discussions about this in various internetz posts. And, this thread was did have "Optimal" in its title, right?