WHY does Black Flag supposedly have a better story than Rogue?

[Duke Flapjack]

I cannot figure out why Edward is bothering finding the observatory thing or how he conceives of getting money out of it. He has a ship, a crew, a mansion, a PERSONAL ISLAND, and an obscene amount of gold so just WHY? I made the cardinal sin way back when of playing Rogue first and honestly I much prefer that plot to Black Flag. Edward is just a douche doing douchy things to make money. He sucks for me as a character.

In Rogue you actually were *doing* something important. I came back after probably 8 or 9 years or so to play this game again and I am having a huge amount of trouble keeping myself interested in the plot. It really doesn't help that the combat is janky and it's too easy to get a ♥♥♥♥-up cascade because Edward decided he'd rather do pull-ups on an awning in front of a sniper (who can pull off pinpoint shots with a 18th century smoothbore) then walk across the stupid grass.

At this point it's only sheer dumb pigheadedness that is keeping me playing. I have long ago abandoned trying to 100% missions (kill five guards stunned by smoke grenades?? Why on earth should I bother to do THAT?) and have abandoned bothering with the 800,000 different collectables and assassins missions and all that stupid Ubisoft filler fluff (except for the sea shanties because that actually gets you something tangible) and the fleet system (because I can make more money capping a couple of frigates). I've gotten to the point where I don't actually NEED money for anything other than refilling ammunition as my ship and my cove are 100% updated and I've only gotten to where Blackbeard get's axed.

This game has a lot of things to do but it is difficult to figure out WHY I should bother doing them.

Ugh. Sorry for the ranty post but this game is making me frustrated and I am not having fun and my keyboard is bearing the brunt of my frustration. I seem to remember having a LOT more fun back in the day but not now. I'm hoping that Rogue will be more fun and a lot less frustrating.

EDIT: I just got to a main mission that I am about 95% sure I've never done so I suspect I got bored and frustrated with it back in 2015 as well...

[Michanicks]

I would like to love the Rogue, but Rogue story is one of the biggest game flaws.
The whole conflict started because Shay just couldn't talk like a sane person, he had weeks to calm down while going home, but when he see Achilles, he instantly start screaming IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT YOU ARE MURDERER and couldn't even try to bother to explain anything which lead other assassins to treat him as legitemely insane for very good reason.
And at the end Achilless suddenly is turning "oh wait maybe Shay was right" without any shown reasons. The whole game wouldn't just exist if they would simply talk about it.

Edvard is no more douche than other pirates. He is more reasonable than seemingly insane Shay - he wants money (he was pretty poor judging by his backstory) and he saw that rich and powerful templars (including people who had multiple/bigger ships, crews, mansions and one of them is a governer) hunting for Observatory - which means it's worth much more than everything Edvard had and could obtain his usual way, up to the point he get betrayed inside the Observatory.

Douche characters are better than overly good characters, who think that "who cares if that person is a slaver, he is old so we should have been merciful to him, how could we ever kill him?" Good character isn't equal to character that does good deeds in the name of good no matter how unbelieveble it is.

[Duke Flapjack]

Originally posted by Michanicks:

I would like to love the Rogue, but Rogue story is one of the biggest game flaws.
The whole conflict started because Shay just couldn't talk like a sane person, he had weeks to calm down while going home, but when he see Achilles, he instantly start screaming IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT YOU ARE MURDERER and couldn't even try to bother to explain anything which lead other assassins to treat him as legitemely insane for very good reason.
And at the end Achilless suddenly is turning "oh wait maybe Shay was right" without any shown reasons. The whole game wouldn't just exist if they would simply talk about it.

Edvard is no more douche than other pirates. He is more reasonable than seemingly insane Shay - he wants money (he was pretty poor judging by his backstory) and he saw that rich and powerful templars (including people who had multiple/bigger ships, crews, mansions and one of them is a governer) hunting for Observatory - which means it's worth much more than everything Edvard had and could obtain his usual way, up to the point he get betrayed inside the Observatory.

Douche characters are better than overly good characters, who think that "who cares if that person is a slaver, he is old so we should have been merciful to him, how could we ever kill him?" Good character isn't equal to character that does good deeds in the name of good no matter how unbelieveble it is.

True enough. I haven't gotten very far in my second play of Rogue and am just now remembering he's not all that great either. I don't disagree with Shay in that nobody should be messing with the earthquake machines, though. I honestly think he did the right thing.

I've been trying to figure out which of the factions is supposed to be the protagonist. I mean, it's in the name, but after playing Black Flag and having the assassins all like "oh gee, we're sorry we sent the psychopathic killer to infiltrate your place of work. Hope you'll still hack computers for us for no real benefit!" but then get a phone call between Templar and sub-Templar wondering if they'll have to kill (presumably) the PC I have no idea. Rogue's Templars are vastly more Lawful-Good than Black Flag's Templars.

I think the underlying reason I like Rogue better is because it's got more world-shaping (the stuff you can invest in) and CONSIDERABLY fewer tailing and evesdropping missions. I believe people have been saying Rogue is considerably shorter than Black Flag but I think that may be because there aren't as many BS tailing missions and the ones that are there aren't as dumb.

[Michanicks]

Originally posted by Duke Flapjack:

Originally posted by Michanicks:

I would like to love the Rogue, but Rogue story is one of the biggest game flaws.
The whole conflict started because Shay just couldn't talk like a sane person, he had weeks to calm down while going home, but when he see Achilles, he instantly start screaming IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT YOU ARE MURDERER and couldn't even try to bother to explain anything which lead other assassins to treat him as legitemely insane for very good reason.
And at the end Achilless suddenly is turning "oh wait maybe Shay was right" without any shown reasons. The whole game wouldn't just exist if they would simply talk about it.

Edvard is no more douche than other pirates. He is more reasonable than seemingly insane Shay - he wants money (he was pretty poor judging by his backstory) and he saw that rich and powerful templars (including people who had multiple/bigger ships, crews, mansions and one of them is a governer) hunting for Observatory - which means it's worth much more than everything Edvard had and could obtain his usual way, up to the point he get betrayed inside the Observatory.

Douche characters are better than overly good characters, who think that "who cares if that person is a slaver, he is old so we should have been merciful to him, how could we ever kill him?" Good character isn't equal to character that does good deeds in the name of good no matter how unbelieveble it is.

True enough. I haven't gotten very far in my second play of Rogue and am just now remembering he's not all that great either. I don't disagree with Shay in that nobody should be messing with the earthquake machines, though. I honestly think he did the right thing.

I've been trying to figure out which of the factions is supposed to be the protagonist. I mean, it's in the name, but after playing Black Flag and having the assassins all like "oh gee, we're sorry we sent the psychopathic killer to infiltrate your place of work. Hope you'll still hack computers for us for no real benefit!" but then get a phone call between Templar and sub-Templar wondering if they'll have to kill (presumably) the PC I have no idea. Rogue's Templars are vastly more Lawful-Good than Black Flag's Templars.

I think the underlying reason I like Rogue better is because it's got more world-shaping (the stuff you can invest in) and CONSIDERABLY fewer tailing and evesdropping missions. I believe people have been saying Rogue is considerably shorter than Black Flag but I think that may be because there aren't as many BS tailing missions and the ones that are there aren't as dumb.

Rogue 18th century templars are unbelievable good (compared to all other AC games not counting AC1), modern templars are an absolute idiots and i would prefer that game would describe them being good more realistic.

Black Flag without all the tailing missions (-25% of them at max) still bigger than Rogue, map is also bigger, and big part of the Rogue map is reskinned AC3 city.

I really wanted to love Rogue and play it more than AC4, but i recently accepted that i like AC4 more and have very good reasons for it.
AC4 is game about pirates - and i feel like a pirate.
ACRo is game about templars - and i don't feel like an templar, i have no power, allied guards are still hostile toward me, i parkour and assasinate like every other AC protagonist, i can't buy ships with all money i have - i can only steal them like a pirate, assassins are all colored orange, it's just feel so wrong.

And that's without counting other problems like reskinned weapons, little to no new animations, less impressive water etc etc.

[Duke Flapjack]

Originally posted by Michanicks:

Originally posted by Duke Flapjack:

True enough. I haven't gotten very far in my second play of Rogue and am just now remembering he's not all that great either. I don't disagree with Shay in that nobody should be messing with the earthquake machines, though. I honestly think he did the right thing.

I've been trying to figure out which of the factions is supposed to be the protagonist. I mean, it's in the name, but after playing Black Flag and having the assassins all like "oh gee, we're sorry we sent the psychopathic killer to infiltrate your place of work. Hope you'll still hack computers for us for no real benefit!" but then get a phone call between Templar and sub-Templar wondering if they'll have to kill (presumably) the PC I have no idea. Rogue's Templars are vastly more Lawful-Good than Black Flag's Templars.

I think the underlying reason I like Rogue better is because it's got more world-shaping (the stuff you can invest in) and CONSIDERABLY fewer tailing and evesdropping missions. I believe people have been saying Rogue is considerably shorter than Black Flag but I think that may be because there aren't as many BS tailing missions and the ones that are there aren't as dumb.

Rogue 18th century templars are unbelievable good (compared to all other AC games not counting AC1), modern templars are an absolute idiots and i would prefer that game would describe them being good more realistic.

Black Flag without all the tailing missions (-25% of them at max) still bigger than Rogue, map is also bigger, and big part of the Rogue map is reskinned AC3 city.

I really wanted to love Rogue and play it more than AC4, but i recently accepted that i like AC4 more and have very good reasons for it.
AC4 is game about pirates - and i feel like a pirate.
ACRo is game about templars - and i don't feel like an templar, i have no power, allied guards are still hostile toward me, i parkour and assasinate like every other AC protagonist, i can't buy ships with all money i have - i can only steal them like a pirate, assassins are all colored orange, it's just feel so wrong.

And that's without counting other problems like reskinned weapons, little to no new animations, less impressive water etc etc.

The trouble I have is that Black Flag isn't pirate *enough.* I love being able to snag my own private base but it doesn't really do anything for me. I want a modern game like Sid Meyer's Pirates! and unfortunately Black Flag doesn't do it for me.

I don't disagree with you on Rogue, though. I don't feel very different from Black Flag. Of course, you never were a REAL assassin in that game, you were just a guy with amazing parkour skills.

One thing I probably should have mentioned is I have only ever played Black Flag, Rogue, and about 1/3 of the first game. I never really got into the series so I am very much taking these two games out of the overlying context probably.

[Michanicks]

Originally posted by Duke Flapjack:

Originally posted by Michanicks:

Rogue 18th century templars are unbelievable good (compared to all other AC games not counting AC1), modern templars are an absolute idiots and i would prefer that game would describe them being good more realistic.

Black Flag without all the tailing missions (-25% of them at max) still bigger than Rogue, map is also bigger, and big part of the Rogue map is reskinned AC3 city.

I really wanted to love Rogue and play it more than AC4, but i recently accepted that i like AC4 more and have very good reasons for it.
AC4 is game about pirates - and i feel like a pirate.
ACRo is game about templars - and i don't feel like an templar, i have no power, allied guards are still hostile toward me, i parkour and assasinate like every other AC protagonist, i can't buy ships with all money i have - i can only steal them like a pirate, assassins are all colored orange, it's just feel so wrong.

And that's without counting other problems like reskinned weapons, little to no new animations, less impressive water etc etc.

The trouble I have is that Black Flag isn't pirate *enough.* I love being able to snag my own private base but it doesn't really do anything for me. I want a modern game like Sid Meyer's Pirates! and unfortunately Black Flag doesn't do it for me.

I don't disagree with you on Rogue, though. I don't feel very different from Black Flag. Of course, you never were a REAL assassin in that game, you were just a guy with amazing parkour skills.

One thing I probably should have mentioned is I have only ever played Black Flag, Rogue, and about 1/3 of the first game. I never really got into the series so I am very much taking these two games out of the overlying context probably.

AC4 is really very simply pirate-wise. There is old world-obscure russian game series Coursairs, even there you had multiple nations, many types of cargo and amunition, your personal team was customised like in Mount and Blade and you could destroy ships by separately damaging hull, sails and crew with different types of shots.
Game wasn't complex at all, but still after it AC4 was feeling really dumbed down compared to what it could have been.

Assassin theme only harms AC4 and ACRo games. WIthout assassin-templar conflict it would be something much better and smart.

AC1, yet being most boring AC game, is also the smartest one and having the best morale compared to every other game in series - second turned it to "templars are bloodthirsty moustache-twirling cartoon-like villains and assassin's are good guys fighting for freedom".

[fatherjimbo]

Shay was awful. I couldn't even finish Rogue because he irritated me so much. Just a whiny little child the whole time I played.

[Duke Flapjack]

Originally posted by Michanicks:

Assassin theme only harms AC4 and ACRo games. WIthout assassin-templar conflict it would be something much better and smart.

AC1, yet being most boring AC game, is also the smartest one and having the best morale compared to every other game in series - second turned it to "templars are bloodthirsty moustache-twirling cartoon-like villains and assassin's are good guys fighting for freedom".

That's a good conclusion honestly. It always occurred to me that Ubisoft wanted to make a game centered around the ship from AC3, but then shoehorned in the whole assassins and templars thing. In AC4 it was awkward at best, really. They could have left out the words assassin and templar and it wouldn't have changed the plot whatsoever. At least in Rogue it was thematically important.

[Michanicks]

Originally posted by Duke Flapjack:

Originally posted by Michanicks:

Assassin theme only harms AC4 and ACRo games. WIthout assassin-templar conflict it would be something much better and smart.

AC1, yet being most boring AC game, is also the smartest one and having the best morale compared to every other game in series - second turned it to "templars are bloodthirsty moustache-twirling cartoon-like villains and assassin's are good guys fighting for freedom".

That's a good conclusion honestly. It always occurred to me that Ubisoft wanted to make a game centered around the ship from AC3, but then shoehorned in the whole assassins and templars thing. In AC4 it was awkward at best, really. They could have left out the words assassin and templar and it wouldn't have changed the plot whatsoever. At least in Rogue it was thematically important.

If Rogue would be the first Ubisoft game about assassins and templars, it actually would be less unlogical.

[Bob]

Ubi could also have just kept the assassins creed out of black flag and make a more hardcore pirate game with somewhat less arcady ship battles. The ocean and ships are in my eyes very well made. A little less arcady ship battles and you would have a game that could stand on it's own feet and not under the creed umbrella. I might have trouble with the plot in the series as a whole as it is very anti christian and pro islam. I guess that is not a problem for most these days (and good luck with that). Would prefer a game with no religion and all the pseudo political discussions that often follows. Ubi have to virtue signal and have notice before the creed games start that it is made of multi cultural team with different faiths and believes. Ok, well I don't think there were many christians on those teams but yeah.....Just a few thoughts for the BF that in my mind could be an independent game free from creed.

[fatherjimbo]

Originally posted by Bob:

Ubi could also have just kept the assassins creed out of black flag and make a more hardcore pirate game with somewhat less arcady ship battles.

Yeah..UBI is trying that will Skull and Bones. It's failing pretty badly but they are trying.

[Michanicks]

Originally posted by fatherjimbo:

Originally posted by Bob:

Ubi could also have just kept the assassins creed out of black flag and make a more hardcore pirate game with somewhat less arcady ship battles.

Yeah..UBI is trying that will Skull and Bones. It's failing pretty badly but they are trying.

Because it's not a hardcore pirate game with less arcady battles. You can't even walk on your ship and fight with cutlas personally. And did you see visual design of Skull and Bones? It's too clearly an another multiplayer sink.