SPOILERS Choices management is quite bad

[Dorok]

It's bizarre how choices are badly managed. It's up to a point that I prefer much more interesting pure roleplay choices of many RPG than the numerous WL2 choices very badly managed even if they have often consequences.

There's countless examples where the choice is just a sort basic of choice A, choice B and you get consequences T or consequences E. That is firstly at choice decision you have very few information, the choice itself is tedious and quick. Secondly quite often you get consequences you could hardly except.

I decided post on the subject because I just get one of the worst. It's about Fletcher in LA. I choose unveil the conspirator so Fletcher and my Teamate get saved. And then I have to speak to chief of the town and he request I hunt and kill the conspirator.

Logically I refuse, rangers aren't professional murderers, and then the engagement to access to their radio is forgotten, and they kick out of the town the rangers meaning all quests canceled and failed.

Lame crap.

The key point here is when you get the choice, there's no real threaten/warning on consequences it's just e yes/no. Plain stupid design, I do hope they'll improve hugely on that in Torment because choices are hugely more important in RPG than consequences.

EDIT: Choices are hugely more important because it's time the player is active and have to think, consequences are just passive fatalism, and even more if the player didn't had decision/control on them.

EDIT: There's ton of example like that, the Highpool/AGC choice illustrate very well this too, very bad choice desing, just focus on consequences, but it's too late and it's just fatalism not interesting dilema choice.

[SevenFiftySix]

They kicked you out because you refused to work with them. If you aren't going to help them then they won't help you, not sure how that was unclear. You should still be able to team up with the other side to overthrow the Oracle's current management though IIRC.

This game plays like older RPGs where it doesn't hold your hand and tell you exactly what will happen and that does lead to unforseen consequences. If that's an issue, save more and reload saves if you're unhappy with the result. Otherwise, roll with it and deal with the consequences as intended.

[Dorok]

You are arguing on logic or realism not sure, but that's not my point.

It's not a matter of hand holding it's about interesting choices.

In that case you are totally wrong because if they want a result they would have warn the rangers that:
1 - They would break the engament about the radio
2 - Banished from town.

Moreover just because Rangers refuse assassinate for them, that's quite laughable and ridiculous.

WL2 writing is pretty weak.

[airmikee99]

I told Mr. Manners that I let Tori go instead of killing her and he kicked me out of town, preventing me from giving that nice old man his denture paste. Whoop-dee-doo. That doesn't make it a bad design, that makes it a flawed choice on my part. I went against the orders of the town leader, what in the hell did I think would happen in a lawless Wasteland? Anyone expect forgiveness and a hug has absolutely no imagination when it comes to said 'lawless Wasteland'. I'm lucky he didn't open fire on the spot.

If you want to be warned before you make every little choice, Wasteland 2 is not the game for you. Try Hello Kitty Island Adventure, it'll be nice to you. :)

[Dorok]

Lol your sarcasm tone is quite stupid and ridiculous as you are an obvious naive kid who never read much in his life. Before arguing on any writing, improve you reading skill kid.

[Dorok]

It doesn't matter you find the consequence logic or not, no it's not logic to try force Rangers do job for you, he has an army at his disposal and it's dumb he takes this risk, zero logic.

But again that's not the point it's how bad was the choice you had to do, pale stuff quite empty, very low quality writing. And there's plenty choices like that in the game that are purely badly written.

[Buyung Kilat]

There is this bug which might actually help you avoid making the choice of killing Tori. I was just discussing it in another thread. That is, get to the radio tower via the tunnel before the scheduled execution. After the whole execution event, Mr. Manners will invite you to his office and he will not ask you to kill her.

[airmikee99]

Aw, just gotta love those brave, intellectual, level zero, private troll accounts. :)

[Dorok]

Originally posted by airmikee99:

Aw, just gotta love those brave, intellectual, level zero, private troll accounts. :)

You choose sarcasm fine, you get your nose bashed, you deserved it. And now the pointless stupid remark, lol.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by buyung_kilat:

There is this bug which might actually help you avoid making the choice of killing Tori. I was just discussing it in another thread. That is, get to the radio tower via the tunnel before the scheduled execution. After the whole execution event, Mr. Manners will invite you to his office and he will not ask you to kill her.

Im' rather tempted just redo the area quietly without to talk to Fletcher. I talk him rather soon and ended with one character removed so felt I had to solve the Fletcher thing asap, and then get kicked out of the town without to have to do much. For the tunnels, without any brute force skill character I gave up explored it.

[XtremeDogg YT]

I have to laugh at this post dorok .. in my post i stated that the game felt pretty generic posibly not as clear as you did, but you defend against my point then here you are argueing the same logic I had .... The game claims to have "In depth choices" which means down the road I should feel some sort of penalty for my actions... it also said having a character with charisma would help me... Much like fallout 1 charasma was hardly breached like it was in fallout 2.

Fallout 3 charasma was ♥♥♥♥♥♥ too vegas had way better indepth dialogue. (But the game length took a hit. )

[Dorok]

Originally posted by XDogg:

I have to laugh at this post dorok .. in my post i stated that the game felt pretty generic posibly not as clear as you did, but you defend against my point then here you are argueing the same logic I had .... The game claims to have "In depth choices" which means down the road I should feel some sort of penalty for my actions... it also said having a character with charisma would help me... Much like fallout 1 charasma was hardly breached like it was in fallout 2.

Fallout 3 charasma was ♥♥♥♥♥♥ too vegas had way better indepth dialogue. (But the game length took a hit. )

Provide the url, I don't see where I have been contradictory aboit choices management in WL2.

WL2 is heavy on consequences, I don't think I have seen anything at this level, but to highlight and make interesting the choices it is weak, and its an opinion I have since a long time, at Highpool versus AGC chocie I already saw the problem and it's only been confirmed by playing more the game.

About the game highlighting "In depth choices" it means the consequences, again I never played a RPG with that many consequences and that many consequences details, it's just at another level than any other RPG, or almost any. Perhaps Ultima 7 but I'm not sure even for it.

I think I failed explain my point and nobeody understood it. Again, it's about putting empahse and focus and thinking on the choices, and about building chocies to make them dilema choices that make the player think on some subjects when he does the choices. The game do that badly, and often transfert a lot of this focus later for the consequences when the choice is back in past. that's not bad, it's just weird how well done it is for consequences and how weakly done it is for choices, most often or too often.

[Buyung Kilat]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by buyung_kilat:

There is this bug which might actually help you avoid making the choice of killing Tori. I was just discussing it in another thread. That is, get to the radio tower via the tunnel before the scheduled execution. After the whole execution event, Mr. Manners will invite you to his office and he will not ask you to kill her.

Im' rather tempted just redo the area quietly without to talk to Fletcher. I talk him rather soon and ended with one character removed so felt I had to solve the Fletcher thing asap, and then get kicked out of the town without to have to do much. For the tunnels, without any brute force skill character I gave up explored it.

The steam won't cause crippling damage, and you'll only be up against cockroaches. If you're afraid of losing your clothes just take them off temporarily.

[Dorok]

Lol I didn't even tried. :-) I'm sensible to pain. :-P But really I think I'll just get a companion with brute skill.

[Diarmuhnd]

i have to agree that the choices are NOT what i expected from the hype.

my eg: is when you go to the bar in rail nomad and talk to the coward merchant whith Angela in your party, then she murders him in cold blood for being a coward. In my 1st playthrough, i was miffed that I could not stop her, or arrest her or report her to Vargas, so i decided to kill her in cold blood. And guess what, no one cared. lol

. There are NO alternate choices for so many encounters and discussions where there should be.

after that i knew what to expect from the rest of the games story.

[Dorok]

The problem is rather complicated, my first anwser is common, it's computer RPG, there's necessarily ton of options you can imagine and want do and won't be implemented.

The second element is I didn't bother much on that event, and then didn't get bothered by the lack of alternate choices or consequences. Angela warned she was going to kill the murderer and yeah it's totally unfair as the guy isn't really the murderer, and yeah it's Angela going mad.

So yeah they missed a little consequences, at least come comments on that in Citadel or some NPC in the area where it happens. For an option to jail her or something like that, well.

But what's weird for me is that you complain on lack of consequences but almost all RPG I played have much much less consequences than has WL2, so it's a bit unfair to complain on that.

For alternate choices, there are many but eventually not what you would expect.

For me all RPG haven't much alternate choices and on that point WL2 does well and very well on consequences.

For me the problems of the choices are:

• Too many are pure fail/success choices. The fail choice is only tempered by having alternate ways to achieve the goal failed, but in my opinion it's a bad solution.
  
• Too many negative consequences are too immediate, that is they push to frustration of the too close reload temptation.
  
• Too few good morale choices, a good morale choice is when each choice has plus and negative on all perspective, morale, grind, quests, story. If a choice break any balance of that too much, it tends break the choices and make it win choice versus fail the other choices.
  
• The game would have benefit a lot to highlight better the choice time, that's the OP point. It's not necessarily to explain all possible consequences but it's to hint well most of them, and to delay a lot those more negatives so the load back isn't anymore an option. It's about making each choice time a stronger moment. Weirdly the game tend make the choices strong only after you have made them, that's also good but it's too much only that, almost, too often.

Why such approach would work a lot better, it's because for most players, fail a quest or lost a goal is like fail a combat it's unacceptable and it's reload.

If the player is confronted with a very late negative consequence too far in past he won't bother load that back.

If he feels he failed a choice and reload back and try something else and see it's balanced on any point of view, he tries load back once more and then learn it's vain, and then concentrate on the pure roleplay of choices and live with the consequences.

If he see a short term consequence he hates and feel this hadn't be hinted well at choice time, he load back and then if another choice involves more logical consequences, then he feel frustrated. At reverse if any immediate consequence feels fairly hinted or well highlighted, the player will be confident in the design at choice time and won't feel to try some lottery bet. And then he will be able concentrate on the roleplay at choice time.

That is the player has became confident in the design and choices aren't used for fail/success or as a challenge tool, and don't feel like random lottery or it's too much delayed consequence to make reload an option, so he can concentrate on the roleplaying.