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Discussions Rules and Guidelines
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Everyone is seriously messed up there.
Be it vampires, werewolves or whatever else.
Choose your poison.
On the other hand it is never boring.
Unless you are a Tremere.
Then TO THE LIBRARY with you!
Have you read much World of Darkness? There is no such thing as an egalitarian society in a deliberately punk gothic world.
You *can* do anything with them, but you should go read the article because it was their exemplar character in the book and something explicitly called it out in text. This wasn't a 'players can do things' issue, it was an authorial intent issue.
I own V20, C20, first and second edition core rule book for Chronicles, as well as first editions of Requiem and Forsaken. I also own Beast: the Primordial and its player's guide book.
I know there's no egalitarian society among vampires. I was just putting that out as an example.
Which is a shame, because Beast was exactly the kind of game I hoped World of Darkness was about way back when I first discovered the IP.
A game where you play as a monster, in a society of monsters, and actively enjoy being monsters.
It wasn't until years later, and much research that I learned World of Darkness was a game where even though you're playing as a monster, you're characters are generally trying to avoid being a monster about it.
Werewolf's the closest to being genuinely monstrous because the characters are using blue and orange morality, but even then the entire point of Garou history is that their being monstrous has done nothing but ♥♥♥♥ them and the entire world over.
I went into the franchise blind and wasn't aware that every game in World of Darkness shared its own version of a 'Humanity' mechanic that prevented you from leaning into your monstrous aspects.
Werewolf - Harmony
Mage - Paradox
Changeling - Bedlam
Demon - Torment
Just kept going like that.
Beast was the first and to the best of my knowledge only game in the entire IP where it didn't have a system like that holding you back. You were a monster, you enjoyed being a monster, and anybody who tried to stop you from enjoying your monstrous existence could kiss your ass.
Sure, there was a Satiety system for Beasts, but that actually did the opposite of Humanity, by providing characters with encouragement to act like monsters. If they didn't constantly terrify people, their Horror got agitated and would eventually go on a rampage. Where as if you kept it nice and fed, it would pass out and become temporarily harmless.
W:TA's Garou are explicitly stuck in a might-makes right, listen to your elders social structure that's ossified and made them unable to be flexible enough to meet the changing tactics of their enemies. It's part of why they were doomed long before the industrial revolution accelerated the world down the path to Apocalypse. Their only real answer for any problem is violence, and the things destroying the world can't be fixed with violence.
Remember, this is a group who find it not only appropriate, but honorable to beat a cub half to death for sassing their elder.
Yeah, people called Beast out for reading a lot like apologia for abusers that portrays victim's responses as irrational and overblown. Then it came out that Matt McFarland, the guy who wrote it, publicly admitted to forcing himself on a 15 year old fan back in the late 90's. After the victim went public about her accusations of rape and abuse, it was further found that his wife knew and used her position to cover other incidents for him.
Fatal and Friends does a better run through on the game itself it than I can put words to here: https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/kurieg/beast-the-primordial/
In their defense, Werewolves were not really intended to be flexible. Gaia produced a ton of different changing breeds, who each had their own roles to fill in the fight for survival. Makole were Gaia's living memory, the Gurahl were Gaia's healers, the Camazots were her messengers, est.
The Garou were created to be her Warriors, and that's it. Auspices like Shaman, Trickster, Politician, est were bestowed upon them by Luna.
Yes, I've been made aware of the situation recently. But I'm trying to separate the work from the writer.
To the book's credit, though, it did make a point of explaining the difference between a Hunter and a Hero. The former are generally trying to protect people by hunting the monsters who prey upon them, while the later are only using the existence of monsters as an excuse to stroke their bruised egos.
Heroes, within the context of Beast, are glory hounds that blame their problems on the rest of the world.
They may not be able to fix the world with violence, but exterminating humanity as a species would give the Wyld time to heal the planet.
The Rokea lore reveals that roughly half of humanity's collective soul is in possession of both Wyrm and Weaver, meaning that it is virtually impossible for Humanity and Nature to coexist peacefully with each other.
One of us has to go, but the key difference is that the planet will survive without us... it will not survive without the Wyld.
The reason why the Garou are failing, is because many of the tribes have lost sight of their mission, and clouded their judgement with more human-like philosophies and doctrines.
The first Impergium was actually working. They had humanity on the ropes, until their allies started turning on them, and the more soft hearted Garou began having second thoughts. If they had kept up the assault, Humanity would never have had the chance to grow into the planet spanning threat they are now.
First of all, the Wyld, Gaia and everything related to them is no better than the Wyrm or Weaver. All three aspects of the world have gone mad long ago. Garou who blindly follow Gaia's original plans are basically no better than Black Spiral Dancers following the Wyrm.
In the first place, the "truth" most obvious to the majority of the setting is that Gaia is already dead or in its death throes. There isn't actually any way to save the world anymore by restoring Gaia or ending humanity. This is a transitionary period into something new. Of course the Weaver would have you believe it's the Weaver's Ascension.
You keep harping on how Garou aren't meant to be flexible, because other shapeshifters were meant to serve that role but... Garou exterminated nearly all other shapeshifters. It's their fault that these supposed safeguards are gone. And furthermore, how does it fit into Gaia's supposed plan to have all of these healers and diplomats while also wanting undeniable genocide? The truth seems to be that none of this is reliable fact. Nobody truly understands what Gaia wanted before the Apocalypse.
Now that all other safeguards are gone Garou HAVE to adapt to fill those roles. Plain and simple. Luna helped a lot to give them a chance to do just that.
Basically, even if you truly believe exterminating humanity is the only way to save the world, it is far too late for that. It simply cannot be done anymore. Humans have grown too strong and too many factions exist that will not allow it to happen for one reason or another. It's also not coincidence that Black Spiral Dancers, servants of the Wyrm, generally want to exterminate humanity too after they used them. Humanity is part of Gaia, so it must also be ended.
If Garou cannot adapt to the actual reality around them rather than following outdated ideas that don't work and never did... then nothing can be saved. Maybe you don't find it fun to be more than a monster, but monsters cannot save anything. So your "fun" is just meaningless self-satisfaction. That's fine, after all this is a game and you don't need to play it to achieve anything, but you do try to justify your actions to others and these justifcations are flimsy at best.
Which sounds more monstrous to you?
Wiping out a single species that is objectively hastening the world to its destruction?
Or preserving that single species at the expense of all other life in the surrounding ecosystems?
I ask you, why the hell are humans given preferential treatment in the World of Darkness setting?
Just because we are humans in real life, we're supposed to mindlessly stand by them, without actually considering the ramification of what that entails?
-------------------
If the Wyld wins, Humanity dies. It's tragic, but the world survives and life moves on.
If the Wyrm wins, EVERYTHING dies; Humanity included.
The choice seems pretty clear to me... It's a shame that Red Talons don't let Homid born into their Tribe.
Doesn't matter, you are the one who insisted you want to play a mindless monster without consequences. You can't flip this around into some pseudo-morality paradox.
No, we are not meant to stand with humans just because the player is human, but it does definitely factor into one very human trait... empathy. And Garou are simply not disconnected from humans. Most Garou are born from humans. They are always connected to them.
And you simply ignored everything I said to repeat your asinine dogma... There is no way that exterminating humanity will save the world. That is not how it works and only the dumbest Garou still believe that. Red Talons are lunatics that nobody takes seriously and that got themselves nearly extinct exactly because they have the foresight of a brick wall.
Gaia is dying and that won't change. The Wyld is mad, just like the Weaver and Wyrm. The only way to regain any semblance of balance and preserve what little there is left of this world is to find compromise and work with humans. The Garou have no way of ending humanity without also ending Gaia, so they have to work with what is there.
Coexist or perish.
I never insisted anything of the sort. I have been emphasizing from the very start that the Garou are fighting to save the planet. You presumed that because I sympathized with the Impergium, Red Talons and Get of Fenris, that I was advocating mindless savagery and barbarism.
Within the Apocalypse setting, humanity's continued existence is objectively threatening the world's survival. That's not propaganda, it is an empirical fact. They are under the thrall of Wyrm and Weaver, and allowing them to continue flourishing unchecked will bring about the death of everything.
Unless somebody has the stones to invade their realms and steal the pearls that Weaver and Wyrm are using to control Humanity's soul, then peaceful coexistence with them is fundamentally impossible. Humanity as a species has been tainted at the spiritual level, and it must be eradicated if Gaia is to have any hope of surviving.
You call me a monster for choosing the lesser of two evils...