Wow You Get Punished for Everything in Career Scenarios

[Briancatchflights]

They Punish way you too Much if you Fail one Task you don't get Any Points at the End of the Scenario that Makes no Sense and then they don't Show you Speed Drops on Some parts Of Certain Routes.

[Briancatchflights]

Originally posted by Mavadelo:

Very interesting discussion, one I think should be read by DTG as well so I have pasted them the link to it.

When it comes to timetabled passenger runs it is a simple fact, if I am 5 minutes late on point a I will be late at point b. As a real life engineer you will have to finish that run and get to deal with angry passengers and a angry dispatcher and/or boss. Not only the passengers from your first stop are angry, all of them are (kind of being penalised for every late stop). In the sim, if the time is to big to ever recover you simply hit restart, no need to get upset about it.

I don't know how timetabled freight in real life runs, I would think savety and goods that are still in one piece are more important then running the engine on top speed all the time so those scenarios seem often to be a bbit unrealistic to me (broken scenarios not counted).

Wheelslip should only count if it actually impacts your train and run in a negative way, Some wheelslip can simply not be avoided in some cases and to get a penalty for something out of your control seems a bit harsh

Braking speeds and length, I think it is a simple matter of experience, regardless if it is getting to know them with all the numbers on a "piece of paper" or with using your judgement by visual inspection. I can see in my trackhud what the lenth is,I can see with F2 how many engines I have Speed +approx length + approx power = length of time before coming to a full stop

just my 2c

Thanks Mavaldo they Need to See.

[Briancatchflights]

Originally posted by Ighten:

My theory is the issue seems to stem from inhouse Career Scenarios being timetabled simply using the dispatcher - if you look at say K Ross' for Westcoast or Scotland theres plenty of leeway given in the timetable.

One problem with just relying on the AI dispatcher to automatically timetable a scenario is it has no idea how to operate realistically under a dbl yellow or a yellow and basically has you operating illegally in order to make the time. Now TBF I can understand the need for some challenge and to keep some element of gameness into the sim as its obviously where DTG see the product en masse (They even seem to have all the streams using the playskool interface and always using the simple form of the locomotive even if a better versions available) but it does at time feel like a missed opportunity and a rather frustrating exercise.

The other issue is they dont seem to have grasped how freight works in the US compared to UK/Europe. Strictly timetabled freight in the US just doesnt really happen to the extent the game wants you to play it.

In the end I think it comes down to DTG wanting to add something to the game that may add repeatability and make use of the front end and interface - but its not quite there; sometimes it is - sometimes though its just sloppy. The same seems to go for Achievements - I dont think I have ever seen a product on Steam before where the Achievements are so unused - just look at the global results page - if anything it shows somethings wrong or that how DTG expected people to behave and how they actually use the sim/game dont tie together. Solve that part with more quality products and scenarios and realistic Ach's and scenarios and things may start to fall into place

Yep.

[Briancatchflights]

Originally posted by Jack:

Originally posted by jalsina:

An example of bad scenarios:
Your scenario goes from point 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4. It is a timetable.
Your delay from 1 to 2 is 5 minutes for whatever reason. You are penalized with negative points.
From 2 to 3 and from 3 to 4 you have a good run. But you will be penalized in 3 and in 4 for the same time delay you had in 2.
Because you are running barely at the max speed and you can´t recover time. If you run at a higher speed to recover time lost from 1 to 2 you will be penalized for overspeed.

I don´t know if you can programme that once punished for time delay, this is sunk costs and we are starting again.

This illness comes from 10 years of MSTS, where there were also bad timeliness "activities".

The train engineer is accountable to deliver with safety first and schedules second.

I understand what you are saying there. But the problem as well is that if it were real life, you ARE late to all the later stops, making every single passenger you pick up angry or possibly late for work. While you may not be penalized for that IRL assuming it's something outside your control, it's hardly something that's optimal. If the game allowed more leeway then it would become boring as there was absolutely no challenge at all. (Think Standard scenarios.) Aside from a few completely broken career scenarios, most of them are very easily achievable. Perhaps not on the first try... but then again, if you're a operating train engineer, one would expect you to have more than one or two runs under your belt in order to make perfect runs all the time on your own. I don't think a perfect run should be expected on the first try. If you take this scenario where you were late, and run it 5 times I'm sure by the next time you won't have trouble ;)

If someone is able to get perfect runs each time, I'd consider than an excellent TS engineer! I consider myself fairly good, but it's pretty rare for me to make a perfect run the first time. I can't even make perfect runs on my own scenarios! (tho in the last couple I've figured out how to change the points so that you don't get hit as hard for certain things like wheel slip.)

How did you Fiqure out how to Change the Points.

[jalsina]

Originally posted by Jack:

Originally posted by jalsina:

An example of bad scenarios:
Your scenario goes from point 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4. It is a timetable.
Your delay from 1 to 2 is 5 minutes for whatever reason. You are penalized with negative points.
From 2 to 3 and from 3 to 4 you have a good run. But you will be penalized in 3 and in 4 for the same time delay you had in 2.
Because you are running barely at the max speed and you can´t recover time. If you run at a higher speed to recover time lost from 1 to 2 you will be penalized for overspeed.

I don´t know if you can programme that once punished for time delay, this is sunk costs and we are starting again.

This illness comes from 10 years of MSTS, where there were also bad timeliness "activities".

The train engineer is accountable to deliver with safety first and schedules second.

I understand what you are saying there. But the problem as well is that if it were real life, you ARE late to all the later stops, making every single passenger you pick up angry or possibly late for work. While you may not be penalized for that IRL assuming it's something outside your control, it's hardly something that's optimal. If the game allowed more leeway then it would become boring as there was absolutely no challenge at all. (Think Standard scenarios.) Aside from a few completely broken career scenarios, most of them are very easily achievable. Perhaps not on the first try... but then again, if you're a operating train engineer, one would expect you to have more than one or two runs under your belt in order to make perfect runs all the time on your own. I don't think a perfect run should be expected on the first try. If you take this scenario where you were late, and run it 5 times I'm sure by the next time you won't have trouble ;)

If someone is able to get perfect runs each time, I'd consider than an excellent TS engineer! I consider myself fairly good, but it's pretty rare for me to make a perfect run the first time. I can't even make perfect runs on my own scenarios! (tho in the last couple I've figured out how to change the points so that you don't get hit as hard for certain things like wheel slip.)

Jack:
I am not against timetables in FS2015. I am against wrongly designed timetables. Of all timetable scenarios, 90% is rushing all the time and of these at least half are wrongly designed. The worst of all is the kind of scenario design I mentioned above where the penalization from the first part is carried out to subsequent parts or slots.

It is for this I enjoy well designed scenarios specially when designed by the kind of pros we have in that Workshop like Elphaba or Steve Van Epps. If you have a sense of professionality while playing you will always try to do your tasks on time and with safety.

In "Diesel Duck Duties CS" a 20 minutes scenario for Hamburg to Hannover you will not punctuate if you do not rush all the time in a railroad and yards with 40 or 60 Kmh maximums at night. In Norfolk Coal District, Run Lilly, run! you have to do as the title says (at night), otherwise you will not punctuate.

Speed before safety, always?

[jalsina]

Originally posted by skinnyraf:

@Ighten:

I think that's more than that. ..............

Generally, if real timetables were as demanding as the ones in TS scenarios, a train engineer would be just as a stressful job as a fighter pilot.

It is precisely the way I feel in those scenarios, as if I was struggling to avoid a bunch of ground to air and air to air missiles, while I am trying to place a smart bomb in my target.

Then, may we start enjoying our train simulator?

[jalsina]

Originally posted by Mavadelo:

...............
Wheelslip should only count if it actually impacts your train and run in a negative way, Some wheelslip can simply not be avoided in some cases and to get a penalty for something out of your control seems a bit harsh
............

Like a steam locomotive rainy scenario with a heavy train running in a 1% or higher grade railroad and they apply penalities for wheelslip. Not to mention locos that have a physics prone for wheelslip like the K4.

[5n4k3d0cToR]

Not all will make it as a train driver mate. :)

Originally posted by skinnyraf:

On busy lines, freight has to arrive on time to avoid ripple effects - if a freight train is behind schedule to arrive on a loop, passenger trains behind will be delayed.

For reference, timetable buffers in Poland (not the best rail network) are:

- 3 minutes for each 100 km for Express and IC trains,
- 4-5 minutes for each 100 km for other passenger trains,
- 10 minutes for each 100 km for freight trains.

Buffers are applied to theoretical travel times calculated based on train performance - of course the question is how aggressive are these.

Last i was there (a good few years back), a delay of up to 2-3 hours was a normal occurence. (That was in the capital too...)

[Ewo]

How harshly you get scored or penalized depends on the scenario and how it was created. Standard scenarios can also fail you for failing just a single step, e.g. you're late for just one stop.

I think the game will then stop telling you if you speed or have wheelslip, so you have to watch that yourself! Wheelslip often makes a distinct sound.

You can turn scoring off completely if you want, it's in the Options menu.

You will also stop getting medals. You will just get a green tick mark instead. Also you will not get XP points. But that's okay, XP points are not used for anything.

[Eriol_Mits]

I ran a scenario on the Weardale and Tessdale line that I happened to be recording for youtube. Got the two harsh timeless penaltys I've ever been given.

First one was arrive @ 15:12:55 it was a go via I arrived at 15:12:59 so 4 seconds late, got docked 26 points. Second I was surpose to arrive at Durham at 15:28:45 - I opened my doors at 15:28:30 so I was early. The game deciced to give me a penalty for it?

According to the scoring on the game I was 26s late for the first time check, when I clearly wasnt and apparently 14 second late for my arrival at Durham? I'll post the incidents on here later. Feel so hard done by as I was on course to get 1000/1000 until that happened.

[Mavadelo]

Originally posted by Eriol_Mits:

I ran a scenario on the Weardale and Tessdale line that I happened to be recording for youtube. Got the two harsh timeless penaltys I've ever been given.

First one was arrive @ 15:12:55 it was a go via I arrived at 15:12:59 so 4 seconds late, got docked 26 points. Second I was surpose to arrive at Durham at 15:28:45 - I opened my doors at 15:28:30 so I was early. The game deciced to give me a penalty for it?

According to the scoring on the game I was 26s late for the first time check, when I clearly wasnt and apparently 14 second late for my arrival at Durham? I'll post the incidents on here later. Feel so hard done by as I was on course to get 1000/1000 until that happened.

I can't remember which scenario but I have seen these "time flaws" in the final briefing as well. Places I got penalties with times I knew I didn't run

[jalsina]

Originally posted by Eriol_Mits:

I ran a scenario on the Weardale and Tessdale line that I happened to be recording for youtube. Got the two harsh timeless penaltys I've ever been given.

First one was arrive @ 15:12:55 it was a go via I arrived at 15:12:59 so 4 seconds late, got docked 26 points. Second I was surpose to arrive at Durham at 15:28:45 - I opened my doors at 15:28:30 so I was early. The game deciced to give me a penalty for it?

According to the scoring on the game I was 26s late for the first time check, when I clearly wasnt and apparently 14 second late for my arrival at Durham? I'll post the incidents on here later. Feel so hard done by as I was on course to get 1000/1000 until that happened.

Maybe if the time measuring system was changed to minutes instead of seconds and the penalties were not carried out from one slot to the following, it would have different results and.........more proud customers

[Briancatchflights]

Originally posted by Eriol_Mits:

I ran a scenario on the Weardale and Tessdale line that I happened to be recording for youtube. Got the two harsh timeless penaltys I've ever been given.

First one was arrive @ 15:12:55 it was a go via I arrived at 15:12:59 so 4 seconds late, got docked 26 points. Second I was surpose to arrive at Durham at 15:28:45 - I opened my doors at 15:28:30 so I was early. The game deciced to give me a penalty for it?

According to the scoring on the game I was 26s late for the first time check, when I clearly wasnt and apparently 14 second late for my arrival at Durham? I'll post the incidents on here later. Feel so hard done by as I was on course to get 1000/1000 until that happened.

yep.

[Briancatchflights]

Originally posted by jalsina:

Originally posted by Jack:

I understand what you are saying there. But the problem as well is that if it were real life, you ARE late to all the later stops, making every single passenger you pick up angry or possibly late for work. While you may not be penalized for that IRL assuming it's something outside your control, it's hardly something that's optimal. If the game allowed more leeway then it would become boring as there was absolutely no challenge at all. (Think Standard scenarios.) Aside from a few completely broken career scenarios, most of them are very easily achievable. Perhaps not on the first try... but then again, if you're a operating train engineer, one would expect you to have more than one or two runs under your belt in order to make perfect runs all the time on your own. I don't think a perfect run should be expected on the first try. If you take this scenario where you were late, and run it 5 times I'm sure by the next time you won't have trouble ;)

If someone is able to get perfect runs each time, I'd consider than an excellent TS engineer! I consider myself fairly good, but it's pretty rare for me to make a perfect run the first time. I can't even make perfect runs on my own scenarios! (tho in the last couple I've figured out how to change the points so that you don't get hit as hard for certain things like wheel slip.)

Jack:
I am not against timetables in FS2015. I am against wrongly designed timetables. Of all timetable scenarios, 90% is rushing all the time and of these at least half are wrongly designed. The worst of all is the kind of scenario design I mentioned above where the penalization from the first part is carried out to subsequent parts or slots.

It is for this I enjoy well designed scenarios specially when designed by the kind of pros we have in that Workshop like Elphaba or Steve Van Epps. If you have a sense of professionality while playing you will always try to do your tasks on time and with safety.

In "Diesel Duck Duties CS" a 20 minutes scenario for Hamburg to Hannover you will not punctuate if you do not rush all the time in a railroad and yards with 40 or 60 Kmh maximums at night. In Norfolk Coal District, Run Lilly, run! you have to do as the title says (at night), otherwise you will not punctuate.

Speed before safety, always?

Yes Very True.

[OldAlaskaGuy]

The Canadiam Mountain Passes scenarios all seem to be good time tables. It is easy to bank time so you can use it to stop on those long down hill stops at signals.

[Eriol_Mits]

okay as i mentioned before here at the time errors from the scenario I ran this morning while recording:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEyzeZVO81g&feature=youtu.be&t=29m8s

I can't seem to embed to steam and make it start at the incident times so above is the full video. Below and the links to the incident times that i mentioned.

https://youtu.be/xEyzeZVO81g?t=29m8s

and the second one

https://youtu.be/xEyzeZVO81g?t=43m48s

As you can see from both time stamps I was early or a few second late. The time on the scores at the end don't match what was shown in scenario.