Steam loco firing / exhaust info

[Crunch Berries]

I thought I'd share a link to a 1947 movie that explains how to properly fire a steam loco, and why the fireman is particularly interested in the color of the exhaust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JaLw3u3-c
I'm not sure how accurately TS2016 simulates the firebox, but perhaps someone with more steam loco experience could say; I'd certainly be interested in knowing.

[customhitcher1]

Thank you,very cool info.

[CockneyRebel]

Very interesting having it explained in that way. Thanks for the post.

[Chicken Balti]

Hello Crunch Berries, yes, a good video and one of the first things I teach new firemen as an instructor, 'fire to your exhaust colour'. Most of the advanced packs for TS steam engines do appear to simulate exhaust colour in relation to firemass and other control settings. However, some of the worst faults in TS relate to when to fire and blower use.
In auto firemen mode TS seems to allow the firemen to shovel coal into the firebox with the drivers regulator closed, that simply is incorrect, you never fire with the regulator closed in real life footplate work. It is not logical to feed a fire not requesting the addition of more coal when the engine is not working hard to burn that extra coal added. You only fire when the regulator is open and the steam demand generated is high.
The blower as depicted in TS is also incorrect, the blowers 'main purpose' is to keep the fire in the firebox and not in the cab (even with the regulator open), it is not 'ever' turned off in real life and to do so would risk possible action being taken against the driver by an inspector and removal of that driver from the footplate.
I have witnessed first hand what can happen in real life when the blower is not turned up enough, despite the engine working hard with the regulator open. Entering a tunnel on a Hall class loco with 6 feet long flames from the firebox snaking out of the firebox from behind closed firebox doors and licking the cab roof, is not enjoyable!
Best.

[Crunch Berries]

Thanks for this valuable information, Chicken Balti! I had no idea that fire could escape through a closed firebox door like that- that's amazing if not a little frightening!

[Chicken Balti]

Originally posted by Crunch Berries:

Thanks for this valuable information, Chicken Balti! I had no idea that fire could escape through a closed firebox door like that- that's amazing if not a little frightening!

Hello Crunch Berries, firebox doors are shaped on the reverse side to allow a small amount of 'secondary air' to pass between the closed doors and firebox back plate, they are not an air tight fit anyway with a certain amount of free play between them and the firebox hole back plate.
Closed firebox doors can be very noisy when an engine is working hard and the strong firebox draught, created by the smokebox exhaust/vacuum, is sucking hard within the firebox and drawing in 'primary air' through the dampers and up through the fire box grate/fire in time with the exhaust beats. They slap backwards and forwards against the firebox hole back plate.
Engines fitted with a hinged firing flap instead, are also not air tight in the closed position and also move back and forth in time with the exhaust beats when working hard.
Some wonder why a small hole is seen in the middle of the closed sliding doors when shut, that is there to allow the fireman to insert fire-irons into the fire when hot without exposing himself to the extreme heat when 'cleaning the fire' or loosening any clinker that may have formed on the grate impeding the fire's steam generating performance, the long fire-iron tool used is called a 'pricker'. The small hole is more often of use when 'disposing' of the engine at the end of the working day and loosening clinker before 'throwing out the fire' with the long handled 'clinker shovel'.
Regards.

[slugwash]

Arthur Brown used to sing about such things . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaHEusBG20c

d;-)

[slugwash]

Sorry - I implied he does not do so anymore - check out this one at four minutes, forty seconds . . .
and BTW he is seventy three years old! . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEKElYD-mYM

[slugwash]

Apologies Crunch Berries ( for tugging at your thread! ) - thanks for YOUR Firing Video - most excellent!

[Chicken Balti]

Originally posted by slugwash:

Arthur Brown used to sing about such things . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaHEusBG20c

d;-)

Hello slugwash, I remember the singer Joe Brown once telling a story about his firemans days in London before finding fame as a singer and his depot concerned that one of their cleaners had gone missing, they found him later, curled up asleep inside the smokebox of a still warm engine that just had a boiler washout, not an un-common incident with steam engines then! Joe Brown also admitted to playing cards with his fellow fireman mates inside a still warm firebox in the winter, out of the way of the shed foreman, when they were placed on 'spare turns' awaiting work to come in!
Best.

[slugwash]

Thanks Chicken Balti - an entertaining anecdote - and I had no idea about Joe Brown's early life wtih steam 'Bruvvers'!!

Firemen do not get the publicity they deserve, it would seem.

There is a website that lists engineers:

http://www.steamindex.com/people/engrs.htm

and drivers:

http://www.steamindex.com/people/drivers.htm

. . . but seems to omit firemen.

The video posted here by Crunch Berries is very well explained - and so many facts about lumps of coal! I have read and watched much theory about steam engines, including meeting Fred Dibnah, not long before his passing away, sadly.

Presumably you are aware of Clive Groome?
I have his "The Little Book of Steam" and a 4xDVD set of "Driving & Firing Steam Locomotives", which I have watched many times, even more so since becoming acquainted with Train Simulator.

I would be interested to know your views on his output and also whether you yourself have any recommendations to make. I am particularly interested in the tools that firemen use - there must be some early written instructions - and companies that specialised in their manufacture, since I understand that they would have been made for specific locos, as they had to contend with the shape and size of the firebox at the same time as the shape and size of the cab!

Coal itself has many varieties too, I am assuming that the ratios of carbon to ash in this attached film from Crunch Berries are an average? One wonders where the 'sweetest' coal could be found - and how much it would be worth today!

The very best to you!

d;-)

[Chicken Balti]

Hello slugwash, yes, have met Clive Groome some years ago, a very nice chap with lot's of knowledge, his daughters learned to fire as well and now drivers themselves. Coal is a much more interesting subject than many imagine, so many types (once available in this country too).
Some are better suited to steam production than others, the GWR firebox and draughting arrangements were best suited to Welsh Dry Steam Coal which produced very high heat once burning well but required more air introduced into the firebox owing to it's very dense compound. GWR engines were built with that coal in mind. The ash content does vary alot, as does the coals 'clinkering' ability that blocks firebars and impedes heat/steam production. Smoke produced also differs greatly between coals from around the world. Not easy finding a compromise coal for todays steam engines in use. Even coals that don't clinker too much sometimes produce lot's of fine ash that can still block up firebars spaced closer together.
Part of a firemans written exam is explaining the main constituants that make up a lump of coal for use in a steam engine. An easy way to remember those individual constituants is the small phrase 'NO CASH', can you work it out slugwash or know the answer already? Each letter in the phrase relates to the main elements that make up coal.
Fire-irons come in many shapes and sizes depending on region and railway company. Swindon works, like other railway works, produced fire-iron tools as part of one's engineering training up until the end of steam. They get some heavy use over the years and often require hardening again by resting them in the firebox until redhot and then cooling rapidly with cold water. A bendy soft fire-iron is a real pain to use.
Best.

[slugwash]

Thanks again, Chicken Balti. Yes, I know the Nitrogen/Oxygen/Carbon/Ash basic mix - and since this thread have read more about coal - I had always assumed that "ash" was relatively inert and harmless . . .

Wikepedia gives this:

Around 10% of coal is ash,[92] Coal ash is hazardous and toxic to human beings and other living things.[93] Coal ash contains the radioactive elements uranium and thorium and is more radioactive than nuclear waste. Coal ash and other solid combustion byproducts are stored locally and escape in various ways that expose those living near coal plants to radiation and environmental toxics.[94]

Huge amounts of coal ash and other waste is produced annually. In 2013, the US alone consumed on the order of 983 million short tonnes of coal per year.[95] Use of coal on this scale generates hundreds of millions of tons of ash and other waste products every year. These include fly ash, bottom ash, and flue-gas desulfurization sludge, that contain mercury, uranium, thorium, arsenic, and other heavy metals, along with non-metals such as selenium"

I am assuming that during Victorian times and beyond, it was tipped from the grate over our own vegetable gardens! Certainly was used for garden paths.

[Chicken Balti]

Hello slugwash, ash is not of much use really as rather toxic as you say, in UK railway terms, most was used for cinder paths/yards all over the system when mixed with smokebox soot contents, some was carted off to mix into concrete and road construction, although I believe frowned on by many.
Coal ash was never used on gardens etc as no nutritional value at all and very acid pH. Wood ash is useful for the garden as a soil improver and potash content for strong root growth. Soot was and is still used by some gardeners around cabbages etc as an old treatment to help prevent club root and a general slug repellant around plants. The sulpher acid content within ash creates a dilute sulphuric acid when wet and explains the rather poor condition of some Barry Island scrapped engines around the smokebox/firebox/tube and ashpan areas despite some of the engines not as old as others there. Many were still full of wet ash from last use.
The full NO CASH phrase denotes the following; Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon, Ash, Sulphate, Hydro Carbons.
Sea-Coal is interesting and often washed up on UK beaches, well rounded and smooth to the touch and sometimes made into jewelery. Interesting stuff is coal. Most children these day's have never handled coal and take great delight in throwing a lump or two onto the fire when visiting us on the footplate at a station stop. How times change.
Regards.

[slugwash]

Thanks once more Chicken Balti for delighting us with yet more informative facts on coal and ash, although us Molluscs here under this damp stone, flinched more than a little at the phrase "slug repellant"! . . .

". . . NOT something used in our garden".
[Limax Flavus, Arion Distinctus, Deroceras Reticulatum, Arion Hortensis, Tandonia Budapestensis, Arion Ater]

I would challenge your point "coal ash was never used on gardens", since those who generated it also had to dispose of it - and this was often a convenient and inexpensive way of doing so, even though ill-advised. Oddly some still think that ash generated by smokeless fuel should therefore be safer, presumably because it sounds as though it has been "cleaned" of its potential "nasties".

More research on my part has revealed the main metal constituents as:

aluminium, arsenic, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, iron, lead, nickel, sodium, selenium, vanadium and zinc - I am certain these add little enhancement to the flavour of lettuce!

The following article covers a lot of results from investigation into ash in soil, albeit chiefly coal ash of the "fly" rather than the "bottom" variety:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-in-soil/

[Chicken Balti]

Hello slugwash, sorry if you found some of that repellant! I should of said, not advised to throw coal ash on your garden, although many no doubt did if not gardeners and not growing veg and flowers ( I would imagine they had rather sterile looking back and front yards though!)
My old Grandad, now departed, threw coal ash down the un-surfaced front garden drive for his Austin 1100 traction, but never on his prize winning flowers and veg! His expired bonfire contents of mostly wood/cuttings etc were collected in the wheel barrow when cold and still dry and spread around the veg patch and flower borders, then lightly hoed in. Wet and leached wood ash looses much of it's potash value to plants so must be used dry. As you can possibly guess, I followed in my Grandads footsteps and a keen gardener myself when time!
Best.