PZB emergency stop "Spam-Bremsen"?

[timahoo]

What is the German voice announcement saying when I trigger the emergency brakes? Sounds like 'Spam-Bremsen'?

[Kim Olesen]

Zwangsbremsung.

[timahoo]

Thank you, I just spent 20 minutes Googling & nothing

[Kim Olesen]

You are welcome. It is not easy to hear if you are not familiar with German.

[[TFA]Wolf]

Zwangsbremsung means forced brake application.

It can happen due to the PZB or the SIFA (the german DVD/DSD equivalent).

If you hear Sifa (Seefuh), it's time to presd the sifa key, because there will be anonther and the the Zwangsbremsung!😉

As far as the PZB, some of the older, less realistic ones require you to acknowledge an alert after you pass the magnet, while the more realististic ones require you to pass the magnet with the acknowledge button down.

Also don't press for longer than a second as otherwise the system thinks there is a fault in the system.

[Kim Olesen]

Sorry but that is not correct.

The correct implementation of PZB is that you have to acknowledge within 4 seconds AFTER passing an active 1000hz magnet.

Only passing 2000hz magnets (befehl 40) requires pressing while you pass.

[[TFA]Wolf]

Originally posted by Kim Olesen:

Sorry but that is not correct.

The correct implementation of PZB is that you have to acknowledge within 4 seconds AFTER passing an active 1000hz magnet.

Only passing 2000hz magnets (befehl 40) requires pressing while you pass.

Yes and no, you technically have 4 seconds to acknowledge the PZB, but it is good practice to press the button while passing the signal.
Why?
You won't get a sound message until you acknowledged it, so unlike the AWS, you don't get a ping or claxon before the signal, you need to acknowledge it and then get the sound, either a small claxon or "Zugbeinflussung, Zugbeinflussung"

That advice is given both in the Virtual Railroads manuals* and been seconded as good practice by two friends of mine who drive IRL.

So you can press it after passing the magnet, and have four seconds to do so, but they are 4 silent seconds, with no warning. And those 4 seconds are very quickly gone. So best to press it and hold it down while passing the Magnet.

From the Ril 483.0101 Page 10:
"4 Bedienen während der Fahrt

(1) Betätigen Sie die WT innerhalb von 4 s (bei MVBFahrzeugen 2,5 s) nach der Vorbeifahrt an
- Signalen, die „Halt erwarten“ signalisieren,
- Signalen, die Geschwindigkeiten < 100 km/h für das
nächste Signal signalisieren,
- „BÜ 0“ zeigenden Überwachungssignalen und
- alleinstehenden Vorsignaltafeln (Ne 2).
(2) Während der Bedienung der WT ertönt ein akustischesSignal (Hupe bzw. Sprachausgabe).
WT im Regelbetrieb Akustisches Signal
"
WT=Wachsamtaste=PZB Acknowledge

*VR had the first proper realistic implementation and it's still among the best PZB and Indusi implementations, only RSSLO has one that is in certain regards more realistic.

[Kim Olesen]

You are understanding the German text wrong. It says exactly what i say.

It says “acknowledge with the WT (Wachamtaste) in the course of 4 seconds AFTER the passing of.....”

Nach means after. Not while.

The German system simply has a very different basic notion of what constitutes driver awarenes. While the english (and most other systems in the world) helps the driver with a sound when they need to acknowledge, the germans decided that not helping would keep the driver even more aware by not alerting the driver as to when to press the button. Si you are wanting to understand this by english train protection logic, but you can’t. The logic behind german trainprotection is different.

A note on the vR manuals. They build the first locos with realistical pzb. BUT that was a long time ago. STILL they just copy pasted that part of the manual, leading people to believe that no other locos have realistical pzb. But german TS locos built since vR implemented realistic pzb, all have it done right. Dtg, rsslo, chris trains, the forge simulation, 3dzug etc etc etc. All correct pzb.

The exception is some simplified locos delivered with routes.

[Mountainman]

I do drive trains in real life, and you only get a sound because you're pressing the button, not because there is an active 1000 Hz magnet. To make it clear: There is no sound indication because of an active magnet. The sound only confirms you are pressing the button. But you can do it whenever you want, the sound is always there.

Yes, some drivers press and hold the button when passing the magnet. Personally I never do it. I always press it right after passing the signal.

[[TFA]Wolf]

Originally posted by Kim Olesen:

You are understanding the German text wrong. It says exactly what i say.

It says “acknowledge with the WT (Wachamtaste) in the course of 4 seconds AFTER the passing of.....”

Nach means after. Not while.

The German system simply has a very different basic notion of what constitutes driver awarenes. While the english (and most other systems in the world) helps the driver with a sound when they need to acknowledge, the germans decided that not helping would keep the driver even more aware by not alerting the driver as to when to press the button. Si you are wanting to understand this by english train protection logic, but you can’t. The logic behind german trainprotection is different.

A note on the vR manuals. They build the first locos with realistical pzb. BUT that was a long time ago. STILL they just copy pasted that part of the manual, leading people to believe that no other locos have realistical pzb. But german TS locos built since vR implemented realistic pzb, all have it done right. Dtg, rsslo, chris trains, the forge simulation, 3dzug etc etc etc. All correct pzb.

The exception is some simplified locos delivered with routes.

Talk about selective reading...........

Yes it says what you said, but then you stopped reading.....the text says right afterwards: "(2) Während der Bedienung der WT ertönt ein akustischesSignal (Hupe bzw. Sprachausgabe).
WT im Regelbetrieb Akustisches Signal"
Which in english means "While pressing the Acknowledge Button, an acustic signal is played (claxon or Speech information) if the PZB is in the normal operative mode."

Ich nehme an, du sprichst deutsch? ;)

The problem is you are arguing semantics with me, instead of arguing the operation....in essence you are creating a version of an argument that I never made.
You go "This part of the text agrees with me! Therefore I win!!!"......while ignoring the latter half......
Not good discussion practice to not assume a good faith reading of your opponent.

When I quoted the Ril 483.010, the real-life basic PZB manual (there are other manufacturer specific versions of it), I was aware it said you have 4 seconds time to acknowledge it after you press the magnet, so I agree with you on that point.....however I was talking of the operation of a realistic PZB as well as RL PZB compared to former iterations of the PZB.

If you go into the really old "Pseudo-PZBs" like the original Br 120s, or the Kuju Br 101s, and even some of the earliest RSC (which later became DTG) locos, they work like the AWS, where you get the message and then cancel that via acknowledge.

Now that disagreement aside, I do agree with you on the point of the different operating principle, that the german safety system requires you to be alert, it does not remind you and if you're asleep it trips you up.
Makes it imho safer IRL, but not to good a train to drive when you are yourself tired.... ;)

I understand the logic, having read both the Ril 483, several other sources like tfz-ausbildung and discussions with the people operating it. Again I just chose to give a more simplified answer for the sake of brevity and not overloading the OP with a massive infodump.

Next, yeah VR had the first realistic implementations of the PZB, then improved upon that with the first brake curves for the PZB, then the first Indusi-Variants, and then RSSLO was the first to catch up and even overtake VR, namely with their 2016. That was the first one where the train weight and the brake hundreds mattered.

Now I don't think that was the only realistic PZB, and you assume that I think that. I have locos from VR, Christrains, RSSLO, Forge Simulations and the RWA Taurus......it would be rather hard to have such a view afterwards, wouldn't it?

I just picked VR for brevity.............they are the most well known, becaue if I added RSSLO, Christrains, Forge, RWA, and the various others who have it, that would be one long list.

3Dzug has come along nicely, especially given where the author started (Railarts/Vizzart), he has surpassed his roots by far and was wasted there.
And he's been a solid bloke the whole time, giving the old RW0381 customers the updates for free was a great move. Was a really nice experience, given that I owned tons of the RW0381 stuff. Made me come back to his shop quite a few times.

Technically RSSLO's SiFa is way more realistic than any others, being a release and press again for the next 30 seconds instead of cancelling it every 30 seconds.
But it was too realistic for one of my train driver's friends......too annoying, because he had no footpedal to operate the SiFa. ;) With the foot it's pure automatism for him, but with the keyboard it's just annoying and hindering him.

Originally posted by Mountainman:

I do drive trains in real life, and you only get a sound because you're pressing the button, not because there is an active 1000 Hz magnet. To make it clear: There is no sound indication because of an active magnet. The sound only confirms you are pressing the button. But you can do it whenever you want, the sound is always there.

Yes, some drivers press and hold the button when passing the magnet. Personally I never do it. I always press it right after passing the signal.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was talking about.
Everyone has their own ways of operating it, depending on their EVU's SOP.

The real indication of passing an active 1000hz is the yellow indicator.

Both of my friends, were pretty clear on telling me that you should never hold it longer than a second while passing, because after three seconds (IIRC) it assumes a fault state.
So their way was, as soon as the Signalmast or the sign is passing from the front to the side window to the, Wachsam/Acknowledge down, hold for a second and release.

Had a few interesting discussions about the "befreien" as well, as the practice in Austria noticeably differed from what is discussed in the manuals ingame, those are germans.

[Kim Olesen]

There is absolutely nothing in the latter part of the text you are quoting that goes against what i said.

Sequence of events:
You pass the sharp 1000hz magnet. Acknowledge within 4 seconds.
At the moment you acknowledge you get an acustic confirmation that you’ve acknowleded. It is exactly as i say. And that is EXACTLY what the German text you quoted says.

Yes you CAN press the wachsam button when you pass the magnet BUT only works because the button is then still pressed at the moment you pass the magnet therefore making the press fall within the four seconds required. But then you are ALSO in danger of pressing the wachsam button too early thus the pzb safety timeout will start the emergenzy brake because you either 1- pressed too early and wachsam is again turned off before you pass the magnet, or 2- you pressed too long. Either possibility will get you a zwangsbremsung and make the timewindow in which to get it right shorter.

That is why Mountainman drives the way he does. Which is the intended way of pzb.

Ask any if the real life traindrivers over at rail-sim.de.

[Kim Olesen]

Read here. http://www.tf-ausbildung.de/BahnInfo/pzb90.htm

You can also read the German real life rulebook for train operations. It says exactly what i say. Pass the signal then acknowledge within 4 seconds after passing the signal.

[Kim Olesen]

http://www.marco-wegener.de/technik/index.htm