How To - Pass Neutral Sections of Track Without Cutting Power?

[Space-Ventura]

Pantograph Disconnection - Seeking Advice:

SPECIAL NOTE* for those looking to help:

As a newbie when reading various terminology within the manual such as “… WCML Over Shap Class 87” I often get confused. I understand WCML is maybe the route, whilst Over Shap Class 87 might be a train; maybe??? My point is that even if I get the terms right (half the time not) the context is generally lost. So too, I struggle with well-meaning individuals whose abbreviated text and context is often lost. I would appreciate it very much if responders took the time to consider perhaps using a few extra words that explain abbreviations and words that more effectively give context to their meaning. It would not only be of great benefit to myself, but also others. TY.

I got issues so please bear with me. I think I am about to solve my problem, in my own long winded way … but would appreciate a little validation and or correction once I have finished rambling on.

TOPIC:
Looking for advice specifically on ‘PANTOGRAPH DISCONECTION’ whilst on-route.’ OR:
How To - Pass Neutral Section of Track Without Cutting Power?

OK – Stop the press! I am rolling back to this spot after having written and edited everything below and now going to straight up take a gamble with the following.

Perhaps the answer is ... in order to pass though neutral sections of track without having your power instantly cut off, is to simply ensure that your throttle is in the neutral position?
OR – other than the throttle being in the neutral position, could one have it be in a negative position? With regards to throttle being in negative position I note pg 15 again where it states “…Do not stop your train within a neutral section.” Although having the throttle in the negative position is not exactly stopping.

Both of these options would ‘Not’ be entering the neutral sections under power which seems to be what cuts the power off as indicated on pg 15.

So what’s your answer in regards to where the throttle should be with regards to passing through neutral sections of track? … AND … what other preparations could one make in order not to trigger a power cut? ___________________________________________________________________________

THE MANUAL:
“Yes, I have read the manual.” (… but not closely enough!) The manual specific to the train and route in question has the word ‘Pantograph’ expressed three times in it. The word is mentioned once in the opening paragraph, once more displayed in a list below and then finally embedded in a table that highlights cabin controls. Further reading has revealed the topic of‘Neutral Sections’ is where it’s at.
Manual → West Coast Main Line - Trent Valley
http://www.thomsoninteractive.com/downloads/wcmltv_manual_rev3web.pdf

USING THE - TMS:
The TMS (Train Management System) Screen – [pg 17 of manual] is great for identifying what stopped the train and how to get moving again. However, this feature does little else to educated me on how to avoid Pantograph Disconnections. Actually I am wondering that perhaps there is no way to avoid the disconnect, that it’s more a case I need to understand what’s happening and what I must do to keep the train moving consistently. This brings me to my issue with pantograph disconnection whilst on the move.
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AVOIDING A COMPLETE STOP EDIT →In hindsight I can see how the following would have my throttle NOT under load which is why I then made it through the neutral section of tack. MAN ... I can't believe I had to write all this to understand: (like I said - I got issues:)

Cont:

Is there a way to avoid having to completely stop or lose so much speed before being able to re-engage pantograph connection? I realized once that when looking at the tiny amperage readout below the mph numbers, that perhaps the drain on power had something to do with being unable to turn the pantograph switch back on? I’m not sure – BUT – on my next run after failing several times along the same part of the track … I sat a little under 110mph … I did not use MAX on the throttle as I had done previously and somehow I made it through that stretch without setting off anything off … or losing electrical connection. I think there was even a case once where I was able to re-engage the pantograph switch … yet other times I had to come to a complete stop as the switch could not be turned back on until fully stopped. This is what makes me now ponder on the relationship between amperage/power drain/acceleration over long periods and pantograph disconnection … if any?

What’s going on with all that? Hmmmmm?

NEUTRAL CONNECTIONS Mentioned 13 times in the manual.
Page 15 of above manual details the need for neutral connections with page 4 showing where they are on the route map. Reading more into it I can see how some trains are not compatible with other routes in regards to pantograph functionality.

I ALSO NOW I SEE not only what each of the warning signs mean … BUT … that the driver must prepare the train in order to pass through those sections of track. This I did not take the time to read. My Bad!!!
Quote from Pg 15:
“Track magnets automatically open and close the train’s main circuit breaker either side of the neutral section. Entering a neutral section under power is permitted but discouraged. Power will be instantly cut off, jolting your passengers. Do not stop your train within a neutral section.”

SO – I am still unclear and can only guess without being specifically told as to what the actual procedure is in the ‘preparations’ for being able to pass through these neutral sections of track without cutting the power. Not to worry … I think I might have the gist of it now. I posted my summer of what I think above already. LOL. Is good to include how I arrived at such. If you have read this far then I guess you’re as twisted as I and I must thank you because that makes me feel so much better.

I know this much … I am sick of having to come to a halt in order to make the train start moving again. This now raises another question, like:

Can I have the throttle in the brake position whilst moving and re-engage the pantograph all in one motion so I don’t have to come to a stop?

BUT enough is enough. I have reach my wits end. Best I can do is edit this for readability and hope that one or two of you are still with me after such a ramble. I did my best to understand.

I’ll thank those able to comprehend. I think I need a week and a few more trips around the bend for it all to digest.

~Dave

[mattj]

When driving on either the West Coast Main Line Over Shap or the West Coast Main Line Trent Valley, you will pass white signs on the side of the track with black brackets. This tells you to cut power to the train if you are either driving the Class 350 or the Class 87. After about a mile, you will see a black sign with white brackets. This means that the neutral sections begins there. You will pass two sets of yellow blocks on the track - you may hear a "thunk" sound on the 87, which is the engine fans turning off and on again. If the throttle is in an "on" position, then the train will immediately cease to draw power until the throttle has been returned to zero. Once that has been done, the train should be able to draw power again. On the 350, you may have to clear a message on the TMS - I don't have it, so I wouldn't know. Hope that helps.

[Space-Ventura]

Thx Railfan 722 - Hearing it all like that really helps, however my dyslexia conflicts hearing your description of the neutral warning signs and the manual's:

Allow me to explain my trouble comprehending … The manual states (Page 15)

“… A white-on-‘black sign’ marks the APROACH to the neutral section,…”
and then goes on to state:
“… A black-on-white sign marks the beginning of the neutral section itself …”

Using your description for ‘neutral’ section signs with respect to the manual, does not the white signs on the side of the track with black brackets come before the white signs on the side of the track with black brackets and not a mile after them?

Forgive me as I am a little confused with your 3rd sentence.

I am of the understanding according to the descriptions given in the manual that these neutral sections of track are roughly 15 miles apart. Upon nearing these neutral sections of track, one will first encounter a white sign on the side of the track with black brackets as a means to prepare for the upcoming neutral track itself which is indicated by white signs on the side of the track with black brackets. After the duration of that section there should not be another white sign with black brackets for approximately 14 miles?
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/941712836151701401/CF8300B2D18BA7C6B381664F37B1495C15D774B0/
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ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS:
What is the distance between the warning sign and the actual neutral section of track? Is that a mile?
Or is the mile the distance of neutral track?

I take it cutting the power does not have to be done immediately when hitting the warning sign but at least before the black brackets and white?

Am I also to believe that no power whatsoever can be applied for the whole duration on the neutral track … that being a distance of one mile?
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I leave it at that whilst I consider more about the yellow blocks.
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I guess it's important to be doing a prefered speed traveling all that time on neutral tracks being unable to power on. I wonder if these sections of track are placed with speed limits and or route implications in mind? I'm sure they are. Just trying to understand the implications myself.

[Space-Ventura]

hmmmm ... Yellow blocks being the device that cuts power. The sound being the fans switching on and off. Yes ... I think I might of even heard these sounds myself in the 350. (or does the 350 not have fans being electric - I guess I am must of heard somthing else disengange and then re-engage - again I could be wrong) I will again run the course and experiment with all the above in mind.

[mattj]

Probably could have been a little clearer on that signage explanation. When you see the white-on-black sign, you are 1 mile or so from the start of the neutral section. In the class 87, it takes a while to tap down, so you should begin this process as soon as you see the sign. In the 350, you can leave it at full power pretty much until just before the black sign. The actual neutral section is maybe 15 feet long - not long enough to get stuck in unless you've done something horribly wrong. Power should be cut anytime between the white sign and the black sign. The 350, along with pretty much any electric I can think of, does have fans, the purpose to keep the traction equipment from igniting itself. Quite a few cases in real life where the fans have failed; the results aren't pretty. Don't be afraid to ask for help - there's a whole community of people here to help.

[Space-Ventura]

Thanks for persisting with me. I mean not to suggest your explanation is wrong or right. I am just trying to share my take on your reply. I am back in game to find these neutral sections and experiment with them. I still have a few questions and hoping others also chime in.

Just for now, what you mean when you say “In the class 87, it takes a while to ‘tap down’…” I am not sure what tap down means?

[Space-Ventura]

No worries. I tend to overcomplicate things, although is often required for my way of learning. I will let it all go for now and just go back to driving and ask questions on other fronts. Like:

Approach Speeds and where to pull up at next to Stop lights. I’ve also been struggling with that.

But for now I let go and like I say and just go back to the driving. Learn by doing and making more mistakes.

[electronx]

You have to understand how overhead wires work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line#Breaks

I started an essay but I think you should just read that :)

If you travel under a (desynchronized, unpowered) neutral section, usually you can hear a click / bang when the circuit breaker shuts down power. Drivers / engineers have to lower the pantograph if there is a risk of short circuit (examples in the article), e.g. maintenance affecting a simple (non-neutral) section brake.

You can hear the panto coming off at the beginning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-SCuFOemhc

One of the comments explains that the reason for lowering the panto is because it's a two-set, and those are electrically connected. So while you could keep up a single panto, the double set would short-circuit the two lines.

This shows the lines nicely. At 0:48 there is a section break ignored, and note the actions from 1:20:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eFF2PQ9_8w

[Purno]

This might explain.
https://youtu.be/NDJQXK3fj3w

[Space-Ventura]

lol about the essay electronx. You made me laugh. Your dead right. I also need to stop talking and start reading. My mind is mush right now but will definatley follow up on all those links. They are just what I needed.

Hey Purno, I was just looking at this when I saw your link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=San8u0DwdIo

Watching yours now. Iooks like a challenge to drive the 86. Just as well we have these tutorials.

[Purno]

It's the neutral sections that make the 86 a challenge to drive. On any route that doesn't simulate neutral sections the 86 is a joy to drive. :)