Maintaining a steady speed - is it ever possible?

[SkEyE]

I haven't fired TS up since the last major update. I have always hoped they'd unlock the brake/throttle controls so they could be precise instead of jumping several percentages at a time.
I find it exceedingly frustrating trying to maintain an even speed even on completely level track. I can get really, really close and could probably nail it if they wouldn't force me to have to jump those gaps in percentages. So I end up either getting docked points for not making a destination in the rigid time or I lose a ton of points for speeding.
I also notice that when the front engine hits a new speed indicator that is a lower speed than the previous it will kick in the second your engine reaches the speed sign next to the track, but if it's a higher limit it won't kick until the last car of your train passes it.

Am I missing something here that a TS expert can explain? Is there a way to get reasonable control over the train's speed or is it just an endless fight between the brakes and throttle. It's just not fun the way it seems to be; at least not when trying to get points for missions.

[redwinrhn]

have you tried operating steam engines? you can get more precise with the throttle instead of notch adjustments. the flags along the track (speed limit signs) begin as soon as the train enters the zone for a reduction. end of train must pass flag before speed increase.

[Ax Kramer]

If you are running Diesel locomotives, the simple answer is that the throttle has, for most locomotives in North America at least, eight throttle notches (positions) that the engineer can use. The throttle is not like that of an automobile with nearly any position from off to full on available.
Yes, this makes running a locomotive more difficult. For a steam locomotive, the reverse lever or wheel will have many more intermediate positions and so more precise control. But notches are still an inherent part of the mechanism.

As to speed limits, these apply to the train as long as any portion of the train is within the limits. You are not to increase your speed to a higher permitted value until all of your train has passed the speed change post.

Also, many of the expected levels of performance demanded by TS 2020 are unrealistic and not consistent with actual train operations as observed in the real world. The day that AMTRAK in the USA achieves on-time performance within a few seconds of the schedule, repeatedly for every station all day, the world as we know it will end!

[SkEyE]

No I haven't tried the steam engines yet, but I think I have to use certain engines for certain missions and missions are where the frustration comes in with the control, or lack of.

[SkEyE]

Originally posted by axkramer:

If you are running Diesel locomotives, the simple answer is that the throttle has, for most locomotives in North America at least, eight throttle notches (positions) that the engineer can use. The throttle is not like that of an automobile with nearly any position from off to full on available.
Yes, this makes running a locomotive more difficult. For a steam locomotive, the reverse lever or wheel will have many more intermediate positions and so more precise control. But notches are still an inherent part of the mechanism.

As to speed limits, these apply to the train as long as any portion of the train is within the limits. You are not to increase your speed to a higher permitted value until all of your train has passed the speed change post.

Also, many of the expected levels of performance demanded by TS 2020 are unrealistic and not consistent with actual train operations as observed in the real world. The day that AMTRAK in the USA achieves on-time performance within a few seconds of the schedule, repeatedly for every station all day, the world as we know it will end!

Thanks for the in depth explanation. I wonder if in the real world you get fired for being at 31mph when you're 10 feet into a 30mph zone that just dropped from 40.

[bobbi]

Locomotives aren’t as standardized with their controls as automobiles. Many models lack continuous/analog throttle settings. The driver/engineer might be limited to six or eight power settings/notches with no opportunity to set the power between those settings. Depending on the grade and gross weight of the train this might result in one throttle setting being slower than the desired speed and the next being faster. Real engineers sometimes have to closely monitor the train’s speed while operating at the higher setting and when it reaches the maximum briefly switch to the lower throttle setting to allow the speed to drop a small amount below that section’s maximum speed.

Real world speed signage often marks the border between two zones. ALL equipment must be at or below the slower of the restrictions while the train is passing the sign (plow to End Of Train device). Real world engineers are accompanied in the cab by personnel with prior experience ON THAT ROUTE until they learn where the speeds change. They might need to use things like a distinctive track side stone, building or tree to know when the locomotive is approaching a speed reduction. With freight trains changing length for each trip they have to allow for that day’s length to know when an increase is allowed. Some locomotives have functions to mark this distance on their speedometer. The simulator’s track profile overlay helps make up for not having a more experienced tutor in the cab.

[Ax Kramer]

The short answer is NO. Railroad officials have been known to use radar guns to clock trains on occasion, but a mile an hour or two over the speed limit for a short distance is not going to matter.

It is your responsibility to anticipate up-coming speed restrictions and decrease the throttle application sufficiently to smoothly "drift" to the lower speed just as the limit is reached. If you are really good at it, this can be done without a brake application. Experience with the route and the locomotive model are the keys.

[redwinrhn]

Originally posted by SkEyE:

Originally posted by axkramer:

If you are running Diesel locomotives, the simple answer is that the throttle has, for most locomotives in North America at least, eight throttle notches (positions) that the engineer can use. The throttle is not like that of an automobile with nearly any position from off to full on available.
Yes, this makes running a locomotive more difficult. For a steam locomotive, the reverse lever or wheel will have many more intermediate positions and so more precise control. But notches are still an inherent part of the mechanism.

As to speed limits, these apply to the train as long as any portion of the train is within the limits. You are not to increase your speed to a higher permitted value until all of your train has passed the speed change post.

Also, many of the expected levels of performance demanded by TS 2020 are unrealistic and not consistent with actual train operations as observed in the real world. The day that AMTRAK in the USA achieves on-time performance within a few seconds of the schedule, repeatedly for every station all day, the world as we know it will end!

Thanks for the in depth explanation. I wonder if in the real world you get fired for being at 31mph when you're 10 feet into a 30mph zone that just dropped from 40.

in reference to speeds in the real setting, you wouldnt be fired for speeding but remember there are event recorders...so any accident.

[trev123]

Quite a few European and UK locos have an auto throttle. From memory I also think that 1 or 2 locos on the North East Corridor route have an auto throttle too.

[Glenn]

Depends what you are driving and when. When I was a driver (70s & 80s UK) it was all down to the skill and experience of the driver to drive according to speed limits & other track conditions. There were even a few units around that had NO speedometer fitted, yet the driver was trusted to use his (or her) experience. Radar guns were used, but very rarely. A few MPH over and one would probably get a big slap on the wrist, although I never heard of it happening during my time.

The power controls in TS (UK traction at least - I don't drive anything else) are, frankly, pretty bad. 4 notches is a joke - real life on the EMUs was more like 38 'notches'. Diesel electric works differently, and as such power delivery was (is) infinitely variable between min & max. This is quite well implemented in TS. Power delivery (electric) is also simulated quite well on the class 73. So if it is possible for them, then I see no reason why similar coding could not be used for other vehicles as well. I wish that I was clever enough to write some kind of patch to fix it.

As for those speed limits. Imagine this: You are driving a very long train around a tight bend, let's say 25mph. As you exit the bend, speed limit becomes 80mph. So you open that throttle to the max. You might be controlling 2 powerful loco's running in multiple config', so your acceleration is pretty darn quick. By the time the last few wagons / coaches near the end of the tight bend, they might now travelling at nearer 35 / 40 mph - but they are still on that 25 mph tight bend..... BANG CRASH BOOM etc etc.

In the past, I have been asked - "Then why don't they put the (80mph or whatever) speed limit at a point when the train has cleared the bend". Simple. There are just too many different train lengths. I believe that the modern plastic computers on wheels have something called EOT EndOfTrain indication, which tells the driver when he can start to increase his speed, which in effect takes away a bit of the skill and experience required by us older drivers; no longer need to put head out of window in the rain to watch the back of your train exit that bend!

[SkEyE]

Loved reading your post, Glenn, thanks.

[bba525]

Originally posted by trev123:

Quite a few European and UK locos have an auto throttle. From memory I also think that 1 or 2 locos on the North East Corridor route have an auto throttle too.

As do many of the Chinese high-speed locos. They basically have a "cruise control" that you can mostly "set and forget."

And yes, this prototypical.

[SkEyE]

Lots of great information and replies. My trouble is, driving a Union Pacific diesel in Cajon Pass for example, It's either accelerating too fast or braking too quickly. Up until 41% the brake has no discernible effect even with throttle at 0% and coasting downhill. Once you get to 44% which is the next step on the throttle it starts braking hard. I have tried cranking the throttle and trying to ride the brake and throttle at the same time to find some happy medium but it's either braking to 0 or going up way too fast and costing me points. Every rare moment I can get it balance right about the time I have to radically alter the speed to conform to the limit or to reach the limit so I don't run out of time. It's just not really enjoyable fighting constantly with the controls this way. I think were I sitting in a real engine I would have far more connection to the machine, become one with it as I do an automobile and have a natural sense of the controls after a period of familiarization. It just never comes with this train sim and takes the enjoyment out. I've spent quite a bit over several years on it and various DLC packs, have always loved trains inexplicably, but it just feels like something is very counter-intuitive in the control scheme. I was hoping I was just missing something obvious but from all these great responses I get the sense the simulator is just artificially obtuse.

[Ax Kramer]

One more comment: many USA Diesels have dynamic braking that can be used on long down grade runs. The throttle must be "off" and the dynamic brake generally takes a minute or so to start after initial application. The traction motors work in reverse as generators with the electricity being converted into waste heat energy. But caution needed, the dynamic braking applies only to the locomotive(s) so a sudden heavy application will likely generate wheel slip as the train pushes the locomotive(s). Likely both dynamic and train brakes working together will be needed.

If you have been trying to control your train only with air brakes, you risk running out of air pressure as the air pump can not restore line pressure fast enough. So do try dynamic braking if you have not here-to-fore.

[Thogmar]

From your last comment it seems you're not using the Dynamic Brakes. Those are brakes using the electric motors in the diesel locomotive as generators, using momentum and gravity (if you're on a downward slope) to produce both power and a resisting braking force. You will not have any forward or reverse propulsive force or throttle available to you when using dynamic brakes since electric motors can't be generators and motors at the same time.

Dynamic braking is only applied to the locomotives, so each "notch" of application gives you less braking force than the full length train brakes, making it easier to add or subtract smaller amounts of braking to your current speed. You can use dynamic braking alone, or you can blend it with an application of air (train) brakes, often there's a recommended minimum amount of train brake to be applied while using dynamic brakes.

The basic old school method to apply dynamic brakes is to reduce throttle to zero, select dynamic brakes (keyboard/cab/controller/ on-screen interface), wait a few seconds for the loco to switch over from propulsion to braking, then start applying dynamic braking (cab/keyboard/controller/on-screen interface).

Read up on it in the manual for each particular locomotive you are driving, the various steps, controls and timing varies. Some sim locomotives don't simulate dynamic braking well or accurately as well, so prepare yourself for a learning/experience curve.

Anyway, basically it gives you a much more "subtle" way to adjust braking power than applying braking force to the entire length of a train.

[Phase3]

I have been on at DTG to give us realistic overspeed limits in TS. these are some of those in the UK: Overspeed Limits British Rail

A small amount of over-speed allowance is made before the train's emergency brakes are applied. At speeds below 80 km/h, the allowance is five kilometres per hour. At nominal speeds of 80–160 km/h, the tolerance is ten kilometres per hour and at speeds in excess of 160 km/h, it is fifteen kilometres per hour.
So Glenn were these limits applied in your day?


Speed and overspeed on some routes
kph kph allowed over mph mph allowed over
<80 5 <50 3
80 – 160 10 50 - 100 6
>160 15 >100 9