BMG Black 5 vs Jubilee

[alanrco]

If anyone owns both (I have the fantastic Black 5) can you compare them side by side. All the images I can see looks like the Jubilee is almost a clone of the Black 5. Also the Jubilee is a more powerful locomotive. Do you find this?

What I can see is:
1) The drive wheels look the same size. The Jubilees' wheels diameter are 12.5% larger than the 5
2) The cylinder housing should have a greater rake than tbe 5. Tbey look the same to me
3) The splashes are too small.
4) and does it appear more powerful than the 5?

Above details taken from 'The Observer's Book of Railway Locomotives of Great Britain'

Just not happy enough to buy this atm

[76561198841418214]

The Jubilee and Black 5 are very similar. Both classes were built by LMS at the same time, both designed by Stanier. The black 5 was built in greater numbers.

The difference is the Jubilee was built exclusively for passenger work, and it's power rating is 6p, it has a higher tractive effort and it's axel load gave it a route availability of 8.

The black 5 on the other hand was a mixed traffic loco and had slightly less power and tractive effort, with a power rating of 5p5f (or 5MT under BR) and it's route availability was 7, which means it was less limited than the jubilee as to where it could go.

[alanrco]

Hi Luke, I know all the facts about both engines, I'm just not convinced that the TS models here are distinctivily different from each other to warrant the purchase. The splashes above the footplates are much larger with the top of the wheels hidden from view etc. The Jubilee was introduced 4 months before the 5. The Staniers are my favourite locos, probably because my grandfather drove the 5. Despite the hard work, he really loved the 5, very responsive and rarely caused a problem.

[JohnnyR]

In my opinion the Black 5 is grossly overpowered. The Jubilee seems a tad less powerful but is probably nearer reality. It has to be driven hard but just about keeps real-schedule times of the 1960s whereas the Black 5 constantly gains time - and hurtles up Beattock and the Lickey on freight unassisted!

The Jubilee does have options of dome/feed arrangement (one of the many variations of the Black 5 not provided for) but I don't find the sounds of either are much like the real thing. Of the two, the Jubilee is my preference.

[AshHill07]

I'm also suprised nobody's mentioned that the Jubilee is also a 3 cylnder locomotive and not just 2 like the Black 5. And as much as the Black 5 is rather more powerful than it probably should be, I personally haven't managed to get it up to 75+ Mph heavy loaded like I have the Jubilee.
The Jubilee also comes with a lot more varients, as it did in reality (I went and dug up the manual[drive.google.com] in case you wanted it).
I've always prefered the Jubilee over the Black 5 if I'm honest, so maybe I'm a little biased, but I've definately got more use out of it than the Black 5, and I got a LOT of use out of the Black 5.

[alanrco]

I don't believe the 5 is overpowered. I've built a scenario which I'll publish soon where the 5 with a consist of eight carriages has to cope with a gradient from stationary. It takes some care and attention to get it running, and a little sand. I love this loco but I could never understand Stanier's motivation for building the model when the Jubilee was already there. Yes, I know that the Jubilee was passenger designated but that's not stopped other P locos from working MT. It is well documented that the Jubilee has 3 cylinders, I didn't concern myself in regard to mentioning that.

BTW for safety reasons, the 5 was never meant to exceed 60mph.
and
The Merchant Navy Class was superceded by the Bulleid Light class. This evolution was quite understandable because, fantastic as the MN was, it was so heavy that it started damaging tracks.

Just thought that deserved a mention in light of the fact that BMG's next project is the MN

[JohnnyR]

Originally posted by alanrco:

I don't believe the 5 is overpowered. I've built a scenario which I'll publish soon where the 5 with a consist of eight carriages has to cope with a gradient from stationary. It takes some care and attention to get it running, and a little sand.

Maybe it depends on the driving mode but in Mode 4 it pulls like a rocket. It is impossible to move slowly without keep opening and shutting the regulator. Sand should not be necessary for pulling away unless on gradients although I notice the loco starts with sand on by default (as does the Jubilee).

Originally posted by alanrco:

Yes, I know that the Jubilee was passenger designated but that's not stopped other P locos from working MT.

5XP was an LMS classification. In BR days they became 6P5F.

Originally posted by alanrco:

BTW for safety reasons, the 5 was never meant to exceed 60mph.

I can't say I have heard that before, that must have hindered things time-wise given the quantity of express work they did, including deputising for Jubilees and indeed piloting Jubilees over the Settle & Carlisle in high summer with heavy loads. Line speed was 80 mph in places on the S&C and the trains timed for 75.

[dmgibbs1997]

The Jubilee was announced on DoveTail Live, but why wasn't it released to Steam?

[alanrco]

Originally posted by dmgibbs1997:

The Jubilee was announced on DoveTail Live, but why wasn't it released to Steam?

DTG would have to pay Valve (Steam) a load of dosh for each sale. Same as any manufacturer who sells through a retail outlet. The downside to this you won't be able to publish scenarios containing the Jubilee on steam and also, if you change your pc you would have to reload the Jubilee seperately.

[76561198841418214]

Originally posted by dmgibbs1997:

The Jubilee was announced on DoveTail Live, but why wasn't it released to Steam?

When we announced it in the article we were planning on seeing a release on Steam for the Jubilee just like many other 3rd party add-ons.
Unfortunately since then the situation changed in a way beyond our control. Apologies for any confusion.

[AshHill07]

Originally posted by Boss Man Games (Facebook):

We've received a lot of questions recently regarding our decision to sell our latest releases via our own website, and not on the Steam platform.

As you know, since the Black 5 add-on we have made a turn towards creating advanced steam locomotives, which are very much a niche add-on aimed at those wanting a full steam loco simulation experience. This somewhat limits our audience.

If we publish through Steam, we only receive around 1/3 of the profit for our hard work to bring you these immersive locos. It becomes difficult to sustain when we have loco hiring fees, donations etc for sound recording and research, as well as looking after our staff.

By publishing on our own website, it enables us to put more time and effort into our new add-ons. Not only this, but it means we can get updates and patches out quickly and efficiently, and allows us to gain a better relationship directly with our fans.

Are we going to publish via Steam in the future? Of course! However, it will be selected add-ons that are likely to have a wider, less "specialist" genre, such as routes and potentially more modern locomotives. Our steam locos may feature on Steam in the future, but they may contain less content for the reasons stated above.

Many thanks for your understanding.

Bossman Games

[Broomwagon]

I'm a little confused - which versions are you talking about, there is the Black 5 that comes with WLOS, Just Trains standard 5 and Bossman games's 5 - are you comparing them with the rather old and basic Jubilee that comes with Settle-Carlisle......there's a new one on its way.

[AshHill07]

He's comparing it with the BMG Jubilee.

These ones:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1545749577

[alanrco]

Black 5 and the sander
My Grandpop, Black 5 driver (who is no longer with us, sad to say) told me, there are 3 reason for using the sander from stationary. Whenere one or more states are true then you use the sander:

1. On a gradient of greater than 1:50
2. When there is ice or heavy rain (dunno about leaves, I think that's a moder phenomana, small wheels and all).
3. When pulling eight or more coaches.

He also said that he was not allowed to go above 60mph in the black 5. He did try it once (no consist). He said that comming into a shallow bend started to get quite scary. His words not mine.

During the 50s life was a lot slower. There were no motorways and it was quite rare to go above 55 on the roads. Trains going at 60mph was quite the thing. Yes, I know about Mallard etc but the normal train speed those days was much, much less than today and with freight stuck at 50mph.

Can't remember which BMG Black 5 it is, well, not without starting TS which I can't be bothered ATM but it does state 'Not to exceed 60mph'.

[Broomwagon]

Originally posted by AshHill07:

He's comparing it with the BMG Jubilee.

These ones:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1545749577

Blimey, I didn't realise the Jubilee was out - that's been done on the quiet, though it looks like only available direct from BMGs.

[JohnnyR]

Originally posted by alanrco:

Black 5 and the sander
My Grandpop, Black 5 driver (who is no longer with us, sad to say) told me, there are 3 reason for using the sander from stationary. Whenere one or more states are true then you use the sander:

1. On a gradient of greater than 1:50
2. When there is ice or heavy rain (dunno about leaves, I think that's a moder phenomana, small wheels and all).
3. When pulling eight or more coaches.

He also said that he was not allowed to go above 60mph in the black 5. He did try it once (no consist). He said that comming into a shallow bend started to get quite scary. His words not mine.

During the 50s life was a lot slower. There were no motorways and it was quite rare to go above 55 on the roads. Trains going at 60mph was quite the thing. Yes, I know about Mallard etc but the normal train speed those days was much, much less than today and with freight stuck at 50mph.

Can't remember which BMG Black 5 it is, well, not without starting TS which I can't be bothered ATM but it does state 'Not to exceed 60mph'.

Thanks for that info - interesting. Yes, indeed, life in those days was rather more laid back but I think your perception of train speeds is a little too slow. The dominant line speed on the West Coast Main Line was 90 mph in 1960 and this allowed the scheduling of a Duchess with Mk1 coaches at 85 mph. Elsewhere, though, line speed was most typically 75 mph and expresses would be scheduled to run at 70 mph where possible. Fully- and half-fitted freights were allowed to run at 55 mph although again the schedules didn't push them to run at that speed in the way it is done today. The reason was, of course, that many locomotives did not have speedometers fitted so actual speeds were down to drivers' perception.

A loco like a Black 5 would have been limited to 55 mph running light, or 45 mph tender first. These, and the line speeds above are per the BR 1/10/60 issue Sectional Appendix books.

You are right about leaves, before disc brakes replaced clasp brakes they weren't a problem.

Mallard was a publicity stunt that went wrong. After breaking the record, the train limped to Peterbrough for a replacement engine with (if I remember rightly) a hot bearing.