Strange thing about distant signals (in general) to resolve (beginner's question)

[CoolGrovyle]

Hi there,

I am very new to Train Simulator, but I am railfan since my childhood. I played first difficult scenario - some german freight train to Köln. Yes, I understand that I have to acknowledge distant signal as soon as I pass it. And also I do know that I have to check in by Sifa to say "I am still here controlling the train."

However in this scenario, every single time I've seen and passed "green and yellow" signal, I got my emergency brake triggered, according to system log due to too high speed - too high over 70 km/h.... But I started to brake as soon as I have seen the signal (from 124 - loco's maximum - to 70) and the distance simply was not enough. I used full service brake to prevent point loss.

So how am I supposed to drive that train? :( Am I supposed to go just 80 or 90 only to be capable to brake to 70 at any time I see signal? Is there some system which shows me ahead signal long before I see it? (Repeat, I mean distant signal green and yellow... that signal is limitting speed to 70, and there is no another signal which warns me of presence of that signal). I consulted a manual, which showed me that signals are on the map. But in that scenario, there aren't signals on map.

Please advice me, I seriously do not know what to do :(

[TrabantDeLuxe]

Yeah, this scenario is a bit unrealistic. The way I usually do it is by trying to sight signals far in advance. Use the quick power-off by throwing the reverser in neutral, go to a full service application and use loco brakes.

A class 'U' PZB rating would have been better suited for this train. You're basically screwed when you can't see the signal at least 10 seconds before passing it.

[CoolGrovyle]

I already figured out how should I drive the train. Only key to success is jsut brake sufficiently to slow to 70 km/h before 29 seconds pass. The things that are in conflict with this were caused by inappropriate emergency brakes, which set PZB to restrictive mode :D So basic is learning how PZB works and it should help :3

[tfk]

Yep and it may be good to use low or mid freight mode for the PZB system. You switch modes by repeatedly pressing CTRL and numpad enter. Secondly the speeds in the HUD are only indications. The signals take preference above it. I'm now in the process of learning the different signal signatures and their associated speeds.

I used these tutorials to learn the basics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5cfjwSpIds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sUGgZTjddE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN6Hbtb9Qw4

TFK

[CoolGrovyle]

I remember the limits. It is essential to use PZB properly in combination with fast and effective driving ^^ However self standing distant signals still troll me with no signallized speed limit, if they signalize "Expect slow". If you are passing main signal with "Proceed slow" you have to driveo n 40 km/h unless there is some adding table or LED indicator which tells you different. However if you see distant signal stand alone (without the main signal) with none of these plates, you expect the 40 km/h speed limit on next signal. You brake hard to get to that limit.... only to realize that there is 10 or 12 plate on the main signal -_- :D

[Felix.AVMP]

Originally posted by CoolGrovyle:

I remember the limits. It is essential to use PZB properly in combination with fast and effective driving ^^ However self standing distant signals still troll me with no signallized speed limit, if they signalize "Expect slow". If you are passing main signal with "Proceed slow" you have to driveo n 40 km/h unless there is some adding table or LED indicator which tells you different. However if you see distant signal stand alone (without the main signal) with none of these plates, you expect the 40 km/h speed limit on next signal. You brake hard to get to that limit.... only to realize that there is 10 or 12 plate on the main signal -_- :D

Now, this should not be so... IRL, "vanilla" Vr2 is given only when the Hp2 on main signal gives speeds between 30 and 60, no more.
If the distant signal gives Vr2 (expect 40) and main signal gives Hp2+Zs3 combination such as "speed 100" (or so), than it means that the route in question is improperly signalled, plain and simple.

Generally, speeds are not changing, when train approaches main signal. The only change there could be, that distant signal will show yellow aka Vr0 or Ks2 (expect stop) and in the mean time the dispatcher manages to set up the train path, so the main will show some kind of "proceed" signal.

[CoolGrovyle]

Originally posted by Felix.AVMP:

Originally posted by CoolGrovyle:

I remember the limits. It is essential to use PZB properly in combination with fast and effective driving ^^ However self standing distant signals still troll me with no signallized speed limit, if they signalize "Expect slow". If you are passing main signal with "Proceed slow" you have to driveo n 40 km/h unless there is some adding table or LED indicator which tells you different. However if you see distant signal stand alone (without the main signal) with none of these plates, you expect the 40 km/h speed limit on next signal. You brake hard to get to that limit.... only to realize that there is 10 or 12 plate on the main signal -_- :D

Now, this should not be so... IRL, "vanilla" Vr2 is given only when the Hp2 on main signal gives speeds between 30 and 60, no more.
If the distant signal gives Vr2 (expect 40) and main signal gives Hp2+Zs3 combination such as "speed 100" (or so), than it means that the route in question is improperly signalled, plain and simple.

Generally, speeds are not changing, when train approaches main signal. The only change there could be, that distant signal will show yellow aka Vr0 or Ks2 (expect stop) and in the mean time the dispatcher manages to set up the train path, so the main will show some kind of "proceed" signal.

Well that 10 or 12 numbers were always shown on led pad. I claimed it incorrectly :) But I didn't know that it should show only 3, 4, 5 or 6 :)

[Felix.AVMP]

Originally posted by CoolGrovyle:

...
Well that 10 or 12 numbers were always shown on led pad. I claimed it incorrectly :) But I didn't know that it should show only 3, 4, 5 or 6 :)

If there is no Zs3v signal (expect speed indicator) on distant signal, only these speeds are allowed to be displayed on the main signal.
And strictly speaking, even 6 should not be used (as 60 was historically the first "fast" speed in central european signalling), but since east german DR was using even this combination, it is possible to see this IRL now and then.
And in similar vein, 30 kph is considered to be a slow speed and should be indicated as such, but sometimes slip ups happen - or the local situation allows this use (excellent visibility, rarely used combination, etc.).

But strictly speaking, Vr2 sans any additional speed indication is reserved for 40 (max 50) kph only, 30 and 60 are mild error states and anything else (either above or below) is major operational error.

[CoolGrovyle]

So, to sum it up. When I see Vr2 I should expect max 50 or 60 speed? :D I mean ... yeah I saw higher, but they were errors according to you, however I was driving 40 to be realistic driver, despite my "already" knowledge of that 100 on main signal :D

[Felix.AVMP]

Originally posted by CoolGrovyle:

So, to sum it up. When I see Vr2 I should expect max 50 or 60 speed? :D I mean ... yeah I saw higher, but they were errors according to you, however I was driving 40 to be realistic driver, despite my "already" knowledge of that 100 on main signal :D

Vr2 -> Hp2 = 40 (this is default "austro-german" slow speed. ie. you are doing it right).
That is the rigid and historical definition.

Also, going historically, when steamers were in use in Germany/Austria etc. the rules were slightly different - you were supposed to have this speed, when you were entering the adjacent point area, ie. it was NOT MANDATORY to have such speed from the signal itself, this allowed some flexibility in signalling.

Btw., the 3CCR illustrates this point very nicely - as many austrian stations on that route are built with this older rule set in mind, you often get speed restriction when you are entering the station, but the speed change is not applied immediately (and it is up to you to brake in time).

[CoolGrovyle]

OKay thanks ^^ I am glad that I am not being trolled by another railway essential (like with PZB before :D )