I wanna discuss the fake-realism of Wanzer (any mecha in abstract) combat

[Blind]

IE: Why would you ever use an SMG/Shotgun?

Damage to vehicles is usually calculated in impulse and/or penetration, two factors which are greatly minimized by SMGs and Shotguns. On the other hand; rifles and cannons would be very good at breaking parts and penetrating mechanisms or even killing the pilot... same goes for the flamethrower weapons

Now, that is for Mech Vs. Mech combat. These are BIG SMGs/Shotguns and would absolutely tear up smaller vehicles (Peewee) and people (Also Peewee), not to mention helicopters/aircraft (in abstract, since in game you just use missiles)

However, there's also the 'mechwarrior' philosophy... Wanzers wouldn't be able to outgun traditional tanks - they have dedicated weapons (no need to arms) and heavy directional armour, and are significantly cheaper... small arms would make even less sense

On the other side, there's the 'Earthsiege' philosophy where these mechs are essentially made out of recycled plates and are only being held together by duct tape... small arms would work just fine

[Outsider]

Mechs are cool.
If they were realistic we'd be using them instead of tanks.
End of discussion.

[Blind]

Originally posted by Outsider:

Mechs are cool.
If they were realistic we'd be using them instead of tanks.
End of discussion.

That's not really what I meant...

If anything, the Hoffman Islands is the perfect place for Wanzer combat

What I mean is, it always seemed silly to me to treat mechanical systems in terms of hit-points and DPS when an impulse/penetration system just makes more sense, yaknow?

[Sarissofoi]

Play Panzer Front bis. Its old but enjoable

[GoldenRobot]

Originally posted by Blind:

IE: Why would you ever use an SMG/Shotgun?

Damage to vehicles is usually calculated in impulse and/or penetration, two factors which are greatly minimized by SMGs and Shotguns. On the other hand; rifles and cannons would be very good at breaking parts and penetrating mechanisms or even killing the pilot... same goes for the flamethrower weapons

Now, that is for Mech Vs. Mech combat. These are BIG SMGs/Shotguns and would absolutely tear up smaller vehicles (Peewee) and people (Also Peewee), not to mention helicopters/aircraft (in abstract, since in game you just use missiles)

However, there's also the 'mechwarrior' philosophy... Wanzers wouldn't be able to outgun traditional tanks - they have dedicated weapons (no need to arms) and heavy directional armour, and are significantly cheaper... small arms would make even less sense

On the other side, there's the 'Earthsiege' philosophy where these mechs are essentially made out of recycled plates and are only being held together by duct tape... small arms would work just fine

If you want to make an argument for plausibility-based mecha, Battletech is not really the strongest foundation to build on.

[GoldenRobot]

Mobile Suit: Gundam does it well because Minofsky Particles gives a nice maguffin in the neutralization of RADAR, which makes the fact that it's the battle of midway with Hector & Achilles in Space all the more buyable.

Also the fact that the use of mobile suits starts essentially as a "Technical" as they're re-purposed utility vehicles made to serve as guerrilla insurgent devices.

You mentioned Tanks, I wonder do you watch "The Chieftan" on Youtube? He's got a great video on the longevity of tanks, stating that even though they can't out-gun self-propelled artillery there are certain specific ballistic roles that they uniquely excel at on the battlefield. I would imagine with Wanzers it would be the same. FRONT MISSION is, when you boil it down, just Gritty VOTOMS with more gore & F-Bombs. And in that regard, the presentation of wanzers follows suit in that they serve as multi-role IFV in capacity, if you examine the mission profiles in-game, that's basically all you're doing; operating in an adaptable mechanized infantry support role, so in that regard I'd say Square did a fair job of presenting something at leas passibly plausible. But I played every single FvZ PS2 Game with gusto, so take my suspension of disbelief with a grain of salt ;).

On the weapons question; everything the wanzer has in terms of available armaments follows that same track in that they're all par-for-the-course of an IFV: grenades, rockets, small-bore cannon & heavy machineguns & the melee weapons just proxy for running into things with your infantry vehicle, which is a dedicated tactic.

All in All, this was a great question, Commendations for posting it.

[GoldenRobot]

Originally posted by Blind:

Originally posted by Outsider:

Mechs are cool.
If they were realistic we'd be using them instead of tanks.
End of discussion.

That's not really what I meant...

If anything, the Hoffman Islands is the perfect place for Wanzer combat

What I mean is, it always seemed silly to me to treat mechanical systems in terms of hit-points and DPS when an impulse/penetration system just makes more sense, yaknow?

oh. well, it's a square game, you know. I feel you though, really No 3D game should use maths tables to dispense phenomenology, but it's going to take a while for people to get wind of a new idea.

[REhorror]

I'd say the shotgun shells and SMG bullets here have much better penetration compared to current modern iteration, essentially giant versions of them.

Wanzer is much more filmsy than tanks, but they are actually faster than tanks due to the rollerstaker legs.

Also, wanzers can carry missiles, which would ideally the main killers. SMG and shotguns can be used as makeshift AAs to shoot down attacking missiles (did this mechanism eventually appear in the other games?).

[Blind]

Originally posted by REhorror:

I'd say the shotgun shells and SMG bullets here have much better penetration compared to current modern iteration, essentially giant versions of them.

Wanzer is much more filmsy than tanks, but they are actually faster than tanks due to the rollerstaker legs.

Also, wanzers can carry missiles, which would ideally the main killers. SMG and shotguns can be used as makeshift AAs to shoot down attacking missiles (did this mechanism eventually appear in the other games?).

Ya, if Wanzers have armour similar to light aircraft/medium helicopter then their statistics actually kinda pan out

[Blind]

After beating the main campaign again I realise... The game as a whole is pretty well thought out.

Huffman Island is the perfect terrain for Wanzer combat with its dense foliage and tall cliffs. Tanks would be almost useless here and artillery would have a hard time targeting Wanzers... and there's not enough cities to maintain a traditional infantry, moreso since most of the island is civilians so the two factions really are only sending the most appropriate material.


Of course, this is the same terrain that helicopters excel in so it would have been nice to have more enemy helicopters, but this game was made in like... idk, 1995 ish? So it would have been in development probably a year earlier; The Battle of Mogadishu was in 1993 and that was the impetus to developing the more advanced helicopter techniques in use in the military today... so that also pans out.

Even further than that, air superiority on the island is sketchy given how much anti-air artillery there is (if your ONE mission against 3 SAMs is indicative of the conflict as a whole)... two PMCs fighting over one small island probably aren't having gigantic air/sea operations; If a larger nation like the USA as a whole were to be involved on Huffman Island they wouldn't need Wanzers since they could rely on bombers, seaplanes and naval supremacy

...

All in all, the setting feels like it genuinely matches the gameplay scenarios...

UNLIKE MOST MECHA GAMES

[Jaasrg]

Originally posted by REhorror:

SMG and shotguns can be used as makeshift AAs to shoot down attacking missiles (did this mechanism eventually appear in the other games?).

No.
But it did appear in the polish resource base cinematic in FM4.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Jaasrg:

Originally posted by REhorror:

SMG and shotguns can be used as makeshift AAs to shoot down attacking missiles (did this mechanism eventually appear in the other games?).

No.
But it did appear in the polish resource base cinematic in FM4.

Funnily enough, it is a mechanic/skills in Super Robot Wars.

[Blind]

As an aside;... I forgot that shotguns in FM1 are functionally just single shot, not the speed shots like in later games

Rifles, and in FM1 shotguns, counter high defense parts (like the FROST) ... so even that's legit

[GoldenRobot]

Originally posted by Blind:

Originally posted by REhorror:

I'd say the shotgun shells and SMG bullets here have much better penetration compared to current modern iteration, essentially giant versions of them.

Wanzer is much more filmsy than tanks, but they are actually faster than tanks due to the rollerstaker legs.

Also, wanzers can carry missiles, which would ideally the main killers. SMG and shotguns can be used as makeshift AAs to shoot down attacking missiles (did this mechanism eventually appear in the other games?).

Ya, if Wanzers have armour similar to light aircraft/medium helicopter then their statistics actually kinda pan out

They have the armor, armament & mission profiles of Armored Personell Carriers; tougher than rotorcraft but lighter than MBTs. That's why it gels; they're essentially doing a job that already has an extant mission profile in-doctrine & one that's suitibly adaptable to real-robot mecha.

[Blind]

Ok, just finished the UCS campaign... which I do remember doing on the DS version.

...

ehhhhh, all the praise I gave the original doesn't translate to the UCS campaign; while tanks and helicopters are smartly used more often... they don't have the stats warranted of their position. IE: I shouldn't be allowed to punch a helicopter

If MBT's defense stat were increased about 10~15 points and helicopter got a dodge bonus... we'd be golden

[REhorror]

Originally posted by Blind:

Ok, just finished the UCS campaign... which I do remember doing on the DS version.

...

ehhhhh, all the praise I gave the original doesn't translate to the UCS campaign; while tanks and helicopters are smartly used more often... they don't have the stats warranted of their position. IE: I shouldn't be allowed to punch a helicopter

If MBT's defense stat were increased about 10~15 points and helicopter got a dodge bonus... we'd be golden

AC can jump and punch helicopters, nice.