Veiled crafting system makes the poor poorer and the rich richer

[Xuhao]

I havent played the game since harbinger league, and something like a week ago I wanted to start playingh again since i have time this summer.
Much of the new stuff that was added i thought was cool, but once i realized how the new crafting system actually worked i got somewhat angered...

Originally the crafting system was not as powerfull as it is now. The perfect item back then would not be crafted, but have a tier 1 roll instead of a crafted mod.
crafting took some time to unlock, but it could be done over some months if you played casually, weeks or days if you played dedicated.
Nut unlocking the crafts was achievable for most people, and the need for other players to craft for you was limited.

Now crafting has become much more powerful and much harder to unlock. And this effectively means that casual players or new players will have to wait for months and months to unlock the crafting themselves. or they have to pay for a crafting service.

So the new/casual (poor) player is paying the dedicated (rich) player in order to get the gear they need, as a service fee.

New/casual players is more likely to loose out on trades since they have to learn the values of items, and more likely be hustled by div card scammers etc. than dedicated players, but at least GGG has done something to make trading somethiong of a buyers market.
The poetrade page helps you look through items and choose which item is good for you. And when you trade you will get your item vs the price, so cheating can be negated by looking carefully at the item to make sure its the right one.

"Crafting service" is the exact opposite. You find someone who glaim to give this service (no guaranties, other than random accounts veriying his integrity) Then you pm someone you dont know, and see if you can work something out. You risk never getting your item back. But even if the service is provided as agreed you have still payed another player simply because he is more dedicated than you. And you have no way of checking prices for similar services.
The buyer is running all the risk, items and valuables, and the seller spends time and time only.

Honestly i find the financial aspect of the new crafting system to be downright disqusting.
Its such a shame because much of the new content I really like.

I wasnt expecting GGG to deliberatly make the poor feed the rich, but it looks like they actually did...

Edit: A solution could be to make it somehow possible for others to use your crafting bench.
Lets say GGG introduced a crafting-chest (purchaseable like a currency stashtab)
Any player in your hideout can clik on the chest and see the prices of a craft divided into categories, or even specific price for each craft.


If the player adds the right amount of currency they will get a onetime use of the owners crafting bench.

This way crafting service and prices can be searched on poetrade, and the sellers would compeed for low prices and not trustworthyness. Grinding the best recipies would still mean a profit, since currency will start rolling in if you have rare and desireable recipies.
The buyers could get their craft riskfree and at a reasonable (not random) price.
And finally GGG would sell a new stashtabs.

I really hope they consider going for something like this...

[jamesc70]

While I hate that the 6 link recipe is somewhere in the 250-300 range of the Delve mine (~150,000+ sulphite to find it), most crafters craft for free.

Check the community forum... I had to look for a 6 link crafter after blowing 4,000 fuses and not getting it, and most of them state they are 'free'.

[Xuhao]

And

Originally posted by jamesc70:

While I hate that the 6 link recipe is somewhere in the 250-300 range of the Delve mine (~150,000+ sulphite to find it), most crafters craft for free.

Check the community forum... I had to look for a 6 link crafter after blowing 4,000 fuses and not getting it, and most of them state they are 'free'.

Ah.. And do you have a guarantee that I can trust them? (no)
can he/she keep the item if they really want to? (yes)
Should i take the chance with good legacy gear... ???


its NOT about me getting a sixlink, or another craft!!!! Its about GGG making a crafting system that not only benefits hardcore players and not the casual ones, but also forces casual players risk being cheated by other players when trying to get the right gear...

[jamesc70]

Yes, I can guarantee you can trust them. They have forum posts where people come in and vouch for them. Some of them even give over exalts as collateral if you want.

I just gave a guy an axe worth about 20-30 exalts and ~5 exalts worth of fusings to craft my 6 link. I tipped him 70 chaos because I have a lot of currency and simply to thank him, but my axe is worth far more than that.

These crafters are literally rich by the time they start doing this, and add to that doing 200+ crafts a day where most people tip big (because we are talking end-game enchants here, you have currency by the time you get the item to put it on).

Complain away, but don't knock what you don't understand.

[dxdiag]

Originally posted by Xuhao:

And
its NOT about me getting a sixlink, or another craft!!!! Its about GGG making a crafting system that not only benefits hardcore players and not the casual ones, but also forces casual players risk being cheated by other players when trying to get the right gear...

And how can GGG benefit from your feedback by posting on the steam forum? it's better to reach them by posting on the poe forums/reddit.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by jamesc70:

Yes, I can guarantee you can trust them. They have forum posts where people come in and vouch for them. Some of them even give over exalts as collateral if you want.

keep in mind that only positive opinions are in these vouch threads because you are not allowed to name and shame on the official PoE forums.

[Xuhao]

[quote/]And how can GGG benefit from your feedback by posting on the steam forum? it's better to reach them by posting on the poe forums/reddit. [/quote]

Well, Im pretty sure GGG pays some attention to the steam fora, but you are right!! I will post there as well, especially since I came up with what i think could be a solution (se edit in post)

thank you for your feedback

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Xuhao:

And how can GGG benefit from your feedback by posting on the steam forum? it's better to reach them by posting on the poe forums/reddit.

Well, Im pretty sure GGG pays some attention to the steam fora, but you are right!! I will post there as well, especially since I came up with what i think could be a solution (se edit in post)

thank you for your feedback

how much experience do you have in PoE?
how many leagues did you played and how proficient are you in crafting?

I ask because it's kinda important to understand where are you coming from.

[Xuhao]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by Xuhao:

Well, Im pretty sure GGG pays some attention to the steam fora, but you are right!! I will post there as well, especially since I came up with what i think could be a solution (se edit in post)

thank you for your feedback

how much experience do you have in PoE?
how many leagues did you played and how proficient are you in crafting?

I ask because it's kinda important to understand where are you coming from.

last league i played was harbinger, but i wasnt going all at it then. (and i havent really been playing since..) Its been years since i grinded seriously, and i dont think i will ever get the time to do so again. I have more than 2k hours spendt ingame, if my steam acc isnt lying. I used to lvl all the masters to 8 (max) during a league, exept for leo and pvp, which i only unlocked occasionally....

the leagues I have played are:

warbands
perandus
talisman
essense
harninger

- I did have some chars in a few of the other leagues, but didnt really play enough for it to matter...

[Hydraxonra]

There are doing the same things that others games ! Making players stay on the game each day to be "good" and sell new skins etc each league to get more money income :s

A video game company ...

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Xuhao:

~ snip ~

thx for clarification. yet I cant agree on a lot of things.

Originally posted by Xuhao:

I havent played the game since harbinger league, and something like a week ago I wanted to start playingh again since i have time this summer.
Much of the new stuff that was added i thought was cool, but once i realized how the new crafting system actually worked i got somewhat angered...

Originally the crafting system was not as powerfull as it is now. The perfect item back then would not be crafted, but have a tier 1 roll instead of a crafted mod.

but all that comes not only from veiled mods.
abyss league (the one after habinger) introduced abyss jewels
bestiary after that introduced powerful mods, 2 leagues later you had the massive crafting potential of delve and then finally syndicate
in addition all the balance changes in between. It's very hard to compare only the crafting system of 2019 with the one of 2017 and overlooking everything around that.

Originally posted by Xuhao:

crafting took some time to unlock, but it could be done over some months if you played casually, weeks or days if you played dedicated.
Nut unlocking the crafts was achievable for most people, and the need for other players to craft for you was limited.

before the rework I never did the leo quest because F* pvp in poe. vorici was a pain in the ass too and lets not talk about catarina with her extreme annoying escort missions. and lets not talk about that the highest craft took along time to get the master to lvl 8. especially zana. I play on average 1 months PoE before moving on, so in this regard the new crafting system is much better for me.

Originally posted by Xuhao:

New/casual players is more likely to loose out on trades since they have to learn the values of items, and more likely be hustled by div card scammers etc. than dedicated players, but at least GGG has done something to make trading somethiong of a buyers market.

new and casual player will always loose out on trade when you compare these to dedicated trader. they had to learn the values of rare items 2 years ago the same way as they need to learn them now.

Originally posted by Xuhao:

Honestly i find the financial aspect of the new crafting system to be downright disqusting.
Its such a shame because much of the new content I really like.

I wasnt expecting GGG to deliberatly make the poor feed the rich, but it looks like they actually did...

the poor will always feed the rich and that was not different in harbinger league. in addition I must say (coming from one who plays mostly builds in the 5-7ex price range) I dont really feel the higher costs of acquiring the new crafts compared to pre-syndicate.

Originally posted by Xuhao:

Edit: A solution could be to make it somehow possible for others to use your crafting bench.
Lets say GGG introduced a crafting-chest (purchaseable like a currency stashtab)
Any player in your hideout can clik on the chest and see the prices of a craft divided into categories, or even specific price for each craft.


If the player adds the right amount of currency they will get a onetime use of the owners crafting bench.

This way crafting service and prices can be searched on poetrade, and the sellers would compeed for low prices and not trustworthyness. Grinding the best recipies would still mean a profit, since currency will start rolling in if you have rare and desireable recipies.
The buyers could get their craft riskfree and at a reasonable (not random) price.
And finally GGG would sell a new stashtabs.

I really hope they consider going for something like this...

the crafting chest would give quite some gameplay advantage, which even the most dense person would consider p2w. in addition it would mean, whoever has the idea to sell crafts in the future would be left out if he dont pay for that. :/

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by Xuhao:

Nut unlocking the crafts was achievable for most people, and the need for other players to craft for you was limited.

Now crafting has become much more powerful and much harder to unlock. And this effectively means that casual players or new players will have to wait for months and months to unlock the crafting themselves. or they have to pay for a crafting service.

So the new/casual (poor) player is paying the dedicated (rich) player in order to get the gear they need, as a service fee.

I have to disagree, my experience is quite the opposite. Plannable crafting has never been as achievable as it is now. I'm playing SSF (so I'm on the level of a player who is too poor to afford even a single trade), and it has never been this easy to create powerful items all by myself.

Your core misconception, imho, is the assumption that you "have to trade" in order to "get the gear you need". You don't have to do that all. With essences, fossils, beastcrafting, veiled mods, etc. the crafting system is so rich now that you can create powerful gear without any trades at all. It might not be _perfect_ gear like some of the things you can find in trades, but you don't _need_ perfect gear.

Just as an example: You can now find lots of useful crafting recipes simply lying around in the world. Previously, you had to grind master missions dozens or even hundreds of times to get the same recipes. And your crafting bench even tells you exactly where to find each of those, so if you miss one, you can see exactly where you need to go to obtain it. How is that not an improvement especially for casual players?

[jamesc70]

Originally posted by Psyringe:

And your crafting bench even tells you exactly where to find each of those, so if you miss one, you can see exactly where you need to go to obtain it. How is that not an improvement especially for casual players?

This is the crux of every argument from 'entitled' players.

They don't want to have to grind, or trade. They want it given to them easily without work.

I agree with you. If you can see how to get it, put in the time... but 6L recipe for example... I've been in the mines every chance, never skipped a delve map mission, and I still don't have this recipe being like 220'ish depth.

The ONLY way to get that recipe is to buy sulphite scarabs and *hope* you went the right way in Delve. Before it was simply get 1500 fusings which is a chore and deserving of having a 6 link imo... now you have to get that currency and go through the mind-numbingly Delve to *hope* to find it.

I msg'ed about 20 master crafters. Only 1 had it.

How is that achievable for even 60 hour a week players like me and 200 hour a week players like mastercrafters that do not have it?

[Xuhao]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by Xuhao:

~ snip ~

but all that comes not only from veiled mods.
abyss league (the one after habinger) introduced abyss jewels
bestiary after that introduced powerful mods, 2 leagues later you had the massive crafting potential of delve and then finally syndicate
in addition all the balance changes in between. It's very hard to compare only the crafting system of 2019 with the one of 2017 and overlooking everything around that.


before the rework I never did the leo quest because F* pvp in poe. vorici was a pain in the ass too and lets not talk about catarina with her extreme annoying escort missions. and lets not talk about that the highest craft took along time to get the master to lvl 8. especially zana. I play on average 1 months PoE before moving on, so in this regard the new crafting system is much better for me.

new and casual player will always loose out on trade when you compare these to dedicated trader. they had to learn the values of rare items 2 years ago the same way as they need to learn them now.


the poor will always feed the rich and that was not different in harbinger league. in addition I must say (coming from one who plays mostly builds in the 5-7ex price range) I dont really feel the higher costs of acquiring the new crafts compared to pre-syndicate.


the crafting chest would give quite some gameplay advantage, which even the most dense person would consider p2w. in addition it would mean, whoever has the idea to sell crafts in the future would be left out if he dont pay for that. :/

True- its the crafting system as a whole, not just the veiled crafting.

the poor has always been feeding the rich, but they are usually given some security. Like a trade tab where you have to press accept, and where you can actually c what you get in return. - The carfting system imo is encouraging players to grind and trade crafts, but nothing has been done to make such trades reliable.

Its true that it would cost real money to trade crafts by my suggestion. however thats what you do now. If you want a shop you need to buy premium stashtabs... So I dont se how this suggetsion makes it more p2w.. Its just a system to secure crafting trades...

Anyway, even though we dont agree on everythiong i appreciate your feedpack.

[Psyringe]

Originally posted by jamesc70:

but 6L recipe for example... I've been in the mines every chance, never skipped a delve map mission, and I still don't have this recipe being like 220'ish depth.

The ONLY way to get that recipe is to buy sulphite scarabs and *hope* you went the right way in Delve. Before it was simply get 1500 fusings which is a chore and deserving of having a 6 link imo... now you have to get that currency and go through the mind-numbingly Delve to *hope* to find it.

I'm pretty much in the same situation, but it feels different to me. Might be just a difference in perspective.

In past leagues, for a reliable way to get a six-link, I had to grind Vorici missions and get 1500 fusings. Usually I was done with Vorici before I had that many fusings, so getting the fusings (and a base item worth investing all that currency on) was the real hurdle.

In the current league, I am close to having 1500 fusings (depending on how many jewellers and alterations I want to keep), I am also close to getting to the highest-tier maps (I want a base with a high ilvl for my planned 6-link), and I'm close to getting the recipe (currently at depth 220 in Delve). IFrom my perspective, it feels that the timings worked out pretty well. Getting the recipe easier wouldn't actually have changed anything, because it's worthless without the fusings and a good base item.

I never bought sulphite scarabs btw (I can't, since I play SSF). However, I did make sure that the masters' daily appearances spawn at high level maps, I prioritized Niko's missions, and I always do his maps with the highest quantity possible (including chisels and vaal fragments) since that affects the sulphite gain. In the Delve I went pretty much straight downwards to depth 220 with only occasional detours for an outpost. And I also manipulated the Syndicate into giving me two scarabs. Considering that I prioritized this so much, and still don't have the recipe despite being close to getting the fusings and the base, I can see where you're coming from. But for me, it looks like I'll get recipe, fusings, and base item pretty much around the same time, so for me it seems to work fine.

[Rogue]

Nonsense, it's always about time invested and playing efficient.

Generally someone playing 4 times as much as you will generally be 4 times richer. Not as if , "poof", that someone magically get all the necessary crafting mods. Add in years of poe experience as in knowledge of the game systems, multiply their ability to get "rich" even more.

So a person with a dedicated group of 6 people, playing since the launch of poe, and playing 12 hours a day. That person probably worked and thus earned ten or more times than the general population, especially those unwillingly to "work". I used "work" as poe is a grinding game.and it feel as so for the casuals.

Google the word productivity...Hey, you can always go "old" school and pray only to rng god like those people in solo-self found leagues instead of whining about people who provide such services for your quality of life.