does anyone have any definitive answer on how far shot ascendancy + point blank interacts?

[mad at video games]

I googled it and most answers are varied, can't trust none of them.

After consulting the poe wiki pages on far shot and point blank, I would say that point blank retains the 50% more damage at close range because far shot doesn't have any negative attributes. However, at range your arrows would do only 20% less damage as opposed to 50% less damage because of the far shot 30% more dmg. I mean, this makes sense, but there's no wiki entry nor does anyone seem to know for sure...

[The_Driver]

While I don't have a definitive answer, the one of ones gut should be what's happening.

So you get "more" damage from point blank at close range and "less" at further distances, counteracting the "less" damage a bit with "increased" damage from the far shot ascendancy.

HOWEVER:
"More"/"Less" means multiplicative, as in the displayed value is exactly how effective it is.
"Increased" ("Reduced") means additive to other such modifiers, which means that you'd want to add up all those with and without it and compare to get the effectiveness. Say you have 400% increased damage* from other sources and get the full bonus, that's 450%, which means instead of a x5 it's a x5.5 multiplier in total, or +10% effective change.

You can't simply add up between these groups (additive and multiplicative).

* keep in mind that this only means applicable to the stat, as in e.g. damage or attack speed or damage taken

[Jonny Sparta]

Originally posted by rangerDanger:

point blank retains the 50% increased damage at close range because far shot doesn't have any negative attributes. However, at range your arrows would do only 20% less damage as opposed to 50% less damage because of the far shot 30% increased dmg. .

makes sense

[Drake]

Yes, it's going to be "At Best" -20% damage at max distance, decreasing to near -50% the more %increased damage you have stacked up.

Bottom line, the more %increased damage you have, the less far shot is going to counter point blank.

The only thing that can effectively coutner point blank is stacking "More" damage multipliers, good luck getting 50% more damage at all times, as most of the big multipliers working with ranged attacks are conditional (including shock, elemental overload etc.).

[Arngrim]

As far as I know more multipliers are multiplicative so 150% damage at start and 65% damage at max range with both abilities combined.

Edit: cecked the wiki and it says they are multiplicative too.
So the damage would be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1.3 x 0.5 at end.

[mad at video games]

Originally posted by Andors:

As far as I know more multipliers are multiplicative so 150% damage at start and 65% damage at max range with both abilities combined.

Edit: cecked the wiki and it says they are multiplicative too.
So the damage would be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1.3 x 0.5 at end.

Ah, so technically speaking far shot + point blank would actually make you have more damage at range than point blank alone. You had probably the most clear and to the point answer, I hope you're right because what you say makes sense lol. I was planning to drop point blank altogether but without it my build would be an incoherent mess without any synergy.

Also, since far shot is affected by how far the arrow travels, at medium range arrows would probably do like 1.15 x 0.25 or something like that right? (0.25 because of damage falloff from point blank)

[Drake]

Yeah but the thing is that far shot is not a more multiplier, it's an increased. So depending how much %increased you already have, it's not going to counter a lot of the point blank penalty at range. And usually in a projectile build, you are already stacking up increased damage (like 150-200% minimum, so the increase from 200 to 230 isn't going to reduce a lot of point blank, not like a 0 to 30 would).

Edit : it seems that there are 2 version of farshot, one is increased 30% and the other is 30% more, dependign on which mod or node gives it, this is starting to get confusing.

[Drake]

Originally posted by rangerDanger:

Originally posted by Andors:

As far as I know more multipliers are multiplicative so 150% damage at start and 65% damage at max range with both abilities combined.

Edit: cecked the wiki and it says they are multiplicative too.
So the damage would be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1.3 x 0.5 at end.

Ah, so technically speaking far shot + point blank would actually make you have more damage at range than point blank alone. You had probably the most clear and to the point answer, I hope you're right because what you say makes sense lol. I was planning to drop point blank altogether but without it my build would be an incoherent mess without any synergy.

Also, since far shot is affected by how far the arrow travels, at medium range arrows would probably do like 1.15 x 0.25 or something like that right? (0.25 because of damage falloff from point blank)

No, farshot + point blank at close range is exatly the same as having only point blank. 1 (farshot) x 1.5 (point blank) = 1.5 (point blank).

[mad at video games]

Originally posted by Sajah:

Originally posted by rangerDanger:

Ah, so technically speaking far shot + point blank would actually make you have more damage at range than point blank alone. You had probably the most clear and to the point answer, I hope you're right because what you say makes sense lol. I was planning to drop point blank altogether but without it my build would be an incoherent mess without any synergy.

Also, since far shot is affected by how far the arrow travels, at medium range arrows would probably do like 1.15 x 0.25 or something like that right? (0.25 because of damage falloff from point blank)

No, farshot + point blank at close range is exatly the same as having only point blank. 1 (farshot) x 1.5 (point blank) = 1.5 (point blank).

Ya I said medium range where close blank starts to have a negative multiplier.

[mad at video games]

Originally posted by Sajah:

Yeah but the thing is that far shot is not a more multiplier, it's an increased. So depending how much %increased you already have, it's not going to counter a lot of the point blank penalty at range. And usually in a projectile build, you are already stacking up increased damage (like 150-200% minimum, so the increase from 200 to 230 isn't going to reduce a lot of point blank, not like a 0 to 30 would).

Edit : it seems that there are 2 version of farshot, one is increased 30% and the other is 30% more, dependign on which mod or node gives it, this is starting to get confusing.

Yup, exactly. I'm mostly worried about the deadeye ascendancy far shot because I really want that extra arrow lol.

[Drake]

I wouldn't say medium range, maybe a third of the travel at best, at mid range (I count max range as -50% point blank malus and 30% farshot bonus) you're already at 25% less from point blank 15% more from farshot, so you're in the negative at that point.

[mad at video games]

Originally posted by Sajah:

I wouldn't say medium range, maybe a third of the travel at best, at mid range (I count max range as -50% point blank malus and 30% farshot bonus) you're already at 25% less from point blank 15% more from farshot, so you're in the negative at that point.

Wasn't saying wether I'm in negative or not.

[mad at video games]

Actually, if they're both multiplicative, wouldn't that mean my initial guess was right? 20%

Originally posted by Andors:

As far as I know more multipliers are multiplicative so 150% damage at start and 65% damage at max range with both abilities combined.

Edit: cecked the wiki and it says they are multiplicative too.
So the damage would be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1.3 x 0.5 at end.

Wait a min tho, if both far shot and point blank are multiplicative wouldn't it just be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1 x 0.8 at the end?
It would be 1.3 x 0.5 at end if the far shot was increased damage not more damage, but the ascendancy far shot is more damage.

So that would mean I was right initially?

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by rangerDanger:

So that would mean I was right initially?

yes. you just had bad wording in the start post, because you described far shot with "inc dmg" instead of "more dmg"

[mad at video games]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by rangerDanger:

So that would mean I was right initially?

yes. you just had bad wording in the start post, because you described far shot with "inc dmg" instead of "more dmg"

ty ty

[Arngrim]

Originally posted by rangerDanger:

Actually, if they're both multiplicative, wouldn't that mean my initial guess was right? 20%

Originally posted by Andors:

As far as I know more multipliers are multiplicative so 150% damage at start and 65% damage at max range with both abilities combined.

Edit: cecked the wiki and it says they are multiplicative too.
So the damage would be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1.3 x 0.5 at end.

Wait a min tho, if both far shot and point blank are multiplicative wouldn't it just be 1 x 1.5 at start and 1 x 0.8 at the end?
It would be 1.3 x 0.5 at end if the far shot was increased damage not more damage, but the ascendancy far shot is more damage.

So that would mean I was right initially?

No, more multipliers multiplies all the increased damage (wich are additive). But two more multipliers together only multiplies.

Far shot is 1.3 and Point blank is 0.5 so 1.3 x 0.5 = 0.65

Let's say you have a bow that always do 100 damage, 20% increased phys damage, point blank and far shot.

The resulting damage at max range would be 100 x 1.2 first then 120 x 0.5 x 1.3 = 78

If Far shot was increased damage it would be 100 x 1.5 (20 + 30 increased) then 150 x 0.5 = 75