Balatro

Balatro

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Algorithm Issues?
So, I get really frustrated sometimes because it seems like the game was Random when it 1st came out and now it seems the devs have added a system where the AI tries to counter your deck.

Let me give you an example, I had a deck that revolved around your 1st hand being huge pay off....I immediately noticed Planets were not appearing in the store and since I had 5 jokers already (3 were rare), I kept getting bombarded with more Jokers in the store....So this was my scenario...I have too much money, Cant buy planets, Cant find Tarots in store....Limited Rerolls so one of my Rare Jokers which would give me Tarots when my money was 4 or less gets countered right off the bat...the Bosses I started facing also began to strangely counter my deck...I had a Joker that gave me a bigger hand and one of the bosses I faced caused you to have smaller hands lol, OK so I beat that one and then the next one Im facing causing cards ive used to not be counted lol, ok moving on, my situation ends with 25$ in money I cant use....Store gave me nothing but Jokers, No planets, No tarots......I had increased hand size but couldnt draw a 4 of a kind lmao....

Like is it me or did they make the game harder instead of leaving it to Chance, I prefer to play a totally random game not some bullsht algorithm
Last edited by KondaBuddy (Live); Dec 27, 2024 @ 10:45am
Originally posted by revlayle:
(EDITED to make a few clarifications)

Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Also how do we know for certain bosses are chosen at start of each game? Is this in the code? Have you personally seen this in the code?
I know I am beating a dead horse, but this statement reminded me of something most new players of Balatro either forget or do not realize:

The Random Number Generator is "SEEDED"

That means if you give it the same Seed value over and over, the random numbers generated are always the SAME set of numbers. How is this possible? Well, in most of computer science, almost all random numbers are not really random. They are random enough to fool most people though.

Random numbers have a starting number, called the seed. Every time the system needs the next random number, a series of mathematical operations are done against the current number to make the next number. Each additional ask for a random number, does the same exact calculation. So if you have two people with the same random number algorithm and they have the same seed and then generate 100,000 random numbers, they will both have the same exact set of 100,000 numbers in the same order!

Balatro uses seeds. In fact, when you win or lose the game, the final popup has the seed used for that run that you can copy and share. When you start a new game, there is an option to put in a seed you have (including one from a recent game you played). (WARNING: using a seed for a game will forfeit that one run from any achievements or unlocks)

Ok, so how are different SEEDs created? Interestingly enough, another RNG, but with a different seed. A seed built into most operating systems, often based on current system date/time and maybe things like internal serial numbers or location (if enabled).

So, in in that regards, yes, bosses, cards, everything are sort of pre-determined when you start. Anytime you do an action that requires an RNG (a shop re-roll, opening a pack, using a wheel, game choosing a boss, etc...), it advances the RNG.

In fact, given two players with the same seed, if they do the exact same actions, they will get the same exact game outcome (as long as they are running the same version of the game, of course)
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Showing 1-15 of 29 comments
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:42am 
"The devs" Game is made by one guy. I digress quickly though. :)

There was a balance patch several months ago, that changed the effect of some of the Jokers. However the game mechanic hasn't changed at all, that I know of, since the beta days, even then I am unsure the beta core mechanics are different.

However, I have seen what you have seen where the game seems to be actively "going against me". However, I am almost certain that is a **Confirmation Bias**. I only notice the game going against me more as that is a more memorable (in this case, negative effect), while I can easily just forget or discount the other times (and probably happens even more) when the game is just being the game.

Many Rogue-likes and Rogue-lites all have this similar issue. You remember the things that frustrate you a lot, even though there are so many other times where the game is just being random, which it is.
Xaelon Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:46am 
It's just RNG. The boss blinds are set when you start a run. The game does not change them dynamically based on what you pick.

And when you see a Boss that will end your run then it's time to adjust your strategy. Or buy the voucher that lets you reroll the boss blind for $10. Or skip a blind that rerolls the boss. If possible of course.

In your example, you had money. You probably could have replaced a few of your jokers and beaten the boss.
malogoss Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:50am 
It's all random. The game is not evil.

You played the game for 18h, total. 3h in the last 2 weeks. You did not notice anything too wild for the first 15h. Then you played some more, you feel like the game randomly countered your actions a few times, now you're wondering if the game is rigged.

It is not.

It also helps to really know how the game works to not become paranoid over simple normal things happening. Like when you say, "I kept getting bombarded with more Jokers in the store". I'm not doubting it. You sure did. Because that's just how the game works, you see more jokers than tarot cards or planet cards in the shop. If it were not biased towards jokers, it would be horrible. Many games would end before seeing a joker in shop.

The same chain of events happening to you with a different build would have made it an easy run. It's all RNG. But we tend to remember very well that one time the RNG worked against us, and to not even notice when it works for us.

Hang in there. RNG does not care about you or anyone else.
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:56am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):

Well the fact you mentioned its created by 1 dev just leads me to believe the whole dev going behind the scenes and adding a algorithm is now even more possible. Has anyone looked at the code recently? Is that even possible? You said you have felt the same way so again that leads me to believe even stronger that this might be a real thing. Like I said, I used to win a lot more then I do now. Im just glad I unlocked some stuff when it 1st came out lol.

Now that is a conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. After listening to interviews with the dev before, he does not sound like someone who would do that. He literally made a game he thought was fun.

I personally think it is Confirmation Bias myself. I have great days with many wins and some days I think it is fighting me. It is literally my mind thinking "it has to be the game... can't be me or randomness", when it likely very much is just that, the game being the game in fact the same game in the last many months.

Also having almost 300 hours in the game helps with perspective and following the game development quite a bit.
Last edited by revlayle; Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:59am
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:58am 
Originally posted by malogoss:
...Because that's just how the game works, you see more jokers than tarot cards or planet cards in the shop. If it were not biased towards jokers, it would be horrible. Many games would end before seeing a joker in shop....
This is why The Zodiac deck sometimes sucks when you start a game with it :D
Last edited by revlayle; Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:58am
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:03am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Dont bring up my hours lol, that means nothing for this type of game lmao. This isnt chess you dont need to setup to counter anything im going to say lmao. I would like to know if anyone knows because they have seen the code? So HAS ANYONE seen the code? How do we know for certain?

Actually time spent with the game really does make a difference. Because you unlock new jokers and vouchers the more you play and do certain tasks.

Also you just understand how jokers and synergy works more after playing a lot. That is a blessing and a curse, in my case, as I fall into a trap of wanting a certain build that I am not getting because I have unlocked everything so getting the cards and jokers I want is less likely now.

However, that taught me newer strategies and different way of winning the game, that I only fully understand after 150+ hours vs just playing 20 hours. Again, your mileage will vary, some people don't understand why they would want to spend this much time in this kind of game. For me, nearly 300 hours is not enough.
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:05am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Again, how do you really know if you havent seen the code? Im just asking going forward, if you havent seen the code please stop trying to get me to shut up. If you have seen the code and can confirm it doesnt have some weird algorithm in there then Ill be satisfied and mark your post as the answer
How do I know? I don't know. I just seems unlikely - Occam's Razor and such.

I am not looking to be the answer for you. If you think the game was changed to actively work against you, then I guess you are going to believe that.
Last edited by revlayle; Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:05am
malogoss Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:08am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Dont bring up my hours lol, that means nothing for this type of game lmao. This isnt chess you dont need to setup to counter anything im going to say lmao. I would like to know if anyone knows because they have seen the code? So HAS ANYONE seen the code? How do we know for certain?

I'm not making any judgement on you or your play based on the hours played. But when you say

"I get really frustrated sometimes because it seems like the game was Random when it 1st came out and now it seems the devs have added a system where the AI tries to counter your deck."

it makes sense to link that to your hours played and recent activity. You could have played 200 hours before, it does not change anything about my analysis. What's true is you played only 3 hours in the last few weeks. That's short enough that it is a possibility that yes, on such a short period, RNG might have really been working against you. It's all about the sample size. I did bring up the hours because they make your story more credible. I could not care less if you are a total noob or a grandmaster, and that's why I never brought it up.

About the code, you can dig into it yourself if you feel like it. Many people did already, for many reasons, including to verify if RNG really is RNG in this game or if the game is lying to us in any way.

Turns out, nobody found anything other than: it's all pure RNG.

A Wheel of Fortune can work 0 out of 12 times.
A shop can have 2 jokers for 4 shops in a row.

If you want to confirm all that yourself, please, go for it.

Edit: better quote them I guess, it's unfortunate that a post can vanish like this.
Last edited by malogoss; Dec 27, 2024 @ 4:32am
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:15am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):

Actually you just answered my whole problem minus the code question. So this game is not necessarily all about chance...its about unlocking stronger cards because until you do so the game is very difficult and the more you unlock the harder it is for you give good feedback on what newer players face, Got it.

Yeah, I mean RNG will always be an issue in all Rogue-like/-lites. In Balatro, you start a new profile with 105/150 of the jokers unlocked, and many of vouchers locked behind certain conditions also.

It took me a long time and watching others play online to learn about ordering of jokers and the ordering of the actual cards I play. Example, 20 hours in I would have never known:
- When using Photograph, I should put my face card at the end of my hand instead of the beginning, because if my other cards give me +mult, I don't want it to be x2 until all the non-face cards play that could be giving me +mult
- However if I have Hanging Chad, maybe I want my face card as the very first card now, because Hanging Chad will retrigger the card 2 more times giving x2 three times (x8 total), maybe that's better
- If I have a Blueprint, should I copy the Hanging Chad or the Photograph now? Depends on what you want to do. You want more retriggers (copying Chad gives 5 triggers instead of 3 now) maybe because you have a lucky face card that you want to try to get +20 mult or $20 from - but Photograph is triggered only 5 times (x32 mult). HOWEVER, if i copy Photograph, I only get three triggers on the first card, but twice for each Photograph giving my 6 Photograph triggers (x64 mult !!).

And that only scratches the VERY surface of the type of decisions you make in this game. Harder stakes have even different types of decisions (example, I would never take a Madness joker, unless I was on a harder stake with Eternal jokers, because that becomes manageable and powerful)
Last edited by revlayle; Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:16am
Frostea Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:15am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Originally posted by malogoss:
It's all random. The game is not evil.

You played the game for 18h, total. 3h in the last 2 weeks. You did not notice anything too wild for the first 15h. Then you played some more, you feel like the game randomly countered your actions a few times, now you're wondering if the game is rigged.

It is not.

It also helps to really know how the game works to not become paranoid over simple normal things happening. Like when you say, "I kept getting bombarded with more Jokers in the store". I'm not doubting it. You sure did. Because that's just how the game works, you see more jokers than tarot cards or planet cards in the shop. If it were not biased towards jokers, it would be horrible. Many games would end before seeing a joker in shop.

The same chain of events happening to you with a different build would have made it an easy run. It's all RNG. But we tend to remember very well that one time the RNG worked against us, and to not even notice when it works for us.

Hang in there. RNG does not care about you or anyone else.
Dont bring up my hours lol, that means nothing for this type of game lmao. This isnt chess you dont need to setup to counter anything im going to say lmao. I would like to know if anyone knows because they have seen the code? So HAS ANYONE seen the code? How do we know for certain?
Yeah playtime does matter. This game requires a lot more knowledge and skill than you think it does. I mean you can win a run playing nothing but high card.

Everything works if you know how jokers and score combos synergize with each other.
Last edited by Frostea; Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:18am
Frostea Dec 24, 2024 @ 11:36am 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Originally posted by Frostea:
Yeah playtime does matter. This game requires a lot more knowledge and skill than you think it does. I mean you can win a run playing nothing but high card.

Everything works if you know how jokers and score combos synergize with each other.
Sounds like a fun video, make a video of you winning with a high card build would love to watch and time played only means you unlocked more cards which make it easier. Game gets easier with more cards which = less Skill involved.
Your attitude is very unfitting for someone in a steam group that claims to be Christian.
Frostea Dec 24, 2024 @ 12:03pm 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Originally posted by Frostea:
Your attitude is very unfitting for someone in a steam group that claims to be Christian.
I think your being overly sensitive, and I would argue you dont know even know what my attitude is at the moment. Your reading texts, but I can assure you im quite happy lol. The fact your bringing up religion and going through my profile tells me quite enough though. Quiting judging eh lol. If you want to judge me though well im also above the middle class so I guess im evil? lol
The fact that you responded basically confirmed my suspicion that you’re speaking from a place of a pride.
Frostea Dec 24, 2024 @ 12:07pm 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Originally posted by Frostea:
The fact that you responded basically confirmed my suspicion that you’re speaking from a place of a pride.

Im not going to talk to you about religion or anything else for that matter, your artwork on your profile tells me plenty, your trolling me, have a nice day your being ignored now lol.
Thanks for the steam points. The Jester award does the exact opposite of what you think it does.
The author of this thread has indicated that this post answers the original topic.
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 1:41pm 
(EDITED to make a few clarifications)

Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
Also how do we know for certain bosses are chosen at start of each game? Is this in the code? Have you personally seen this in the code?
I know I am beating a dead horse, but this statement reminded me of something most new players of Balatro either forget or do not realize:

The Random Number Generator is "SEEDED"

That means if you give it the same Seed value over and over, the random numbers generated are always the SAME set of numbers. How is this possible? Well, in most of computer science, almost all random numbers are not really random. They are random enough to fool most people though.

Random numbers have a starting number, called the seed. Every time the system needs the next random number, a series of mathematical operations are done against the current number to make the next number. Each additional ask for a random number, does the same exact calculation. So if you have two people with the same random number algorithm and they have the same seed and then generate 100,000 random numbers, they will both have the same exact set of 100,000 numbers in the same order!

Balatro uses seeds. In fact, when you win or lose the game, the final popup has the seed used for that run that you can copy and share. When you start a new game, there is an option to put in a seed you have (including one from a recent game you played). (WARNING: using a seed for a game will forfeit that one run from any achievements or unlocks)

Ok, so how are different SEEDs created? Interestingly enough, another RNG, but with a different seed. A seed built into most operating systems, often based on current system date/time and maybe things like internal serial numbers or location (if enabled).

So, in in that regards, yes, bosses, cards, everything are sort of pre-determined when you start. Anytime you do an action that requires an RNG (a shop re-roll, opening a pack, using a wheel, game choosing a boss, etc...), it advances the RNG.

In fact, given two players with the same seed, if they do the exact same actions, they will get the same exact game outcome (as long as they are running the same version of the game, of course)
Last edited by revlayle; Dec 24, 2024 @ 2:08pm
revlayle Dec 24, 2024 @ 1:50pm 
Originally posted by KondaBuddy (Live):
ALSO what is the BLANK VOUCHER do? It costs 10$
It, EVENTUALLY, leads to an reasonably powerful unlock. If you want it spoiled, let me know, I have no problem telling you whet it does (also, you can certainly find it on the Balatro Wiki).
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Date Posted: Dec 24, 2024 @ 10:20am
Posts: 29