Spare Trousers - Possible Best Joker?

[Anzac-A1]

I think Spare Trousers might be the best Joker in the game. Two Pair is such an easy hand to get. By Round 15, I've gotten this thing to a +44 Multi. Combined with my other Jokers, I'm now able to score more thank 20k in a single hand.

Update: Just scored over 44k in one hand.

[RipoffPingu]

Publicado originalmente por doingwork:

Publicado originalmente por RipoffPingu:

the reason why i'd say i'd take obelisk over blueprint if forced to make the choice is because it scales VERY well and isn't very situational at all; it just requires you to play a hand that isn't your most played hand, which is... really not at all "extremely situational". sure, this is useless if your build is centered around a very specific hand type,

You mean every run? I can't remember the last time I had a run that WASN'T defined around a specific hand type. That's like the most common strategy. The only times I don't is when I get obelisk in Ante 1 and define a build around it. It's easily one of the most situational jokers in the game. Especially if you find it late in the game and have already invested planets into you specific hand.

obelisk is good in ante 1-3 because you can farm high card/pair/any other weak hand you have and have more than enough other hands you can play to preserve the xmult WHILE still letting you get a very good source of xmult early on. you can even do this up to ante 6, your xmult just won't be as high as it otherwise would be. in my experience, its a very versatile joker that scales well because i don't build around specific hands most the time if i can help it to preserve my versatility. as for planets being invested into a specific hand type, i mostly go for planets to feed constellation or as a backup plan if i can't get my desired hand type.

"I still don't understand this whole "needs a good joker to scale with" to make blueprint good. No it doesn't. It makes ANY joker doubled." ...yes, and quite a few effects aren't really a good idea to double when you can instead grab a scaling multiplier joker instead. why double your multi with blueprint + ride the bus on abandoned deck when you can get holographic, get 4x the multi, and THEN get blueprint later because you last longer? yes, blueprint is stupidly versatile, but it does nothing by itself - it cannot win you a run unless you're either boosting an economy card or already near the edge of defeat, and if its boosting an economy card its likely not helping with scoring either.

"I would be STOKED to go into ante 2 with blueprint and brainstorm. Thats insane. Thats grounds for a high-score run in the making."...only for you to realize you're broke, have no scoring jokers, and have to get about 1000 chips with no boost to your multipliers or chips. good luck lol

i understand that you're really, really in love with blueprints versatility. i am as well - i just recognise that you need a worth while card to copy first in order for blueprint to be of any good value. its a secondary option to consider for your build, not the main one - and that, in my eyes, is enough to devalue it enough for quite a few jokers to be above it in the early and mid game, but when i have those jokers blueprint suddenly shoots way up in terms of importance to grab. its usefulness is wholly dependant on the state of the game - if you're not doing very well, you would most likely be better off grabbing something else, but if you ARE doing well, blueprint can easily amplify your build to go even better for a lot longer.

it just needs those good cards first.

[ccsk723]

Spare Trousers is probably the best Joker I would like to see in the first shop for high stake runs. Alongside with Riff raff.

[Firaga]

Totally useless semantics. Everyone knows what the blueprint does and that it can be and most often is very powerful addition to the joker lineup. What difference does it make to argue either way?

[GTTV]

Publicado originalmente por RazzberryMocha:

Publicado originalmente por GTTV:

Which joker will win a run completely by itself? Your point is invalid

By the way, you can technically win a run without any joker (there's even a challenge for it).

I see the reasoning and even agree with some of the points others have made, but this is pretty bad. How in two sentences did you manage to invoke both false equivalence and nirvana fallacy?

My point went way over your head, didn't it? No need to start pulling out incorrectly-applied logic fallacies.

The argument that blueprint isn't the best Joker because you need other jokers to win is completely invalid. It is operating under these false assumptions:
1. That other jokers are implicitly 'better' because they can win a run alone (which is unrealistic - this situation doesn't happen. Ironically, THIS is a nirvana fallacy) and
2. you need other Jokers to win a run with blueprint (you actually don't need any jokers to win a run).

Both of these assumptions are wrong.

This is what I was responding to, for context: "You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory."

[RazzberryMocha]

Publicado originalmente por GTTV:

Publicado originalmente por RazzberryMocha:

I see the reasoning and even agree with some of the points others have made, but this is pretty bad. How in two sentences did you manage to invoke both false equivalence and nirvana fallacy?

My point went way over your head, didn't it? No need to start pulling out incorrectly-applied logic fallacies.

The argument that blueprint isn't the best Joker because you need other jokers to win is completely invalid. It is operating under these false assumptions:
1. That other jokers are implicitly 'better' because they can win a run alone (which is unrealistic - this situation doesn't happen. Ironically, THIS is a nirvana fallacy) and
2. you need other Jokers to win a run with blueprint (you actually don't need any jokers to win a run).

Both of these assumptions are wrong.

This is what I was responding to, for context: "You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory."

In most situations if you are forced to take either blueprint or another joker, most of the time there is another joker that is better, that is the argument being presented. The whole jokerless argument also takes away from everything too. Yes, you can win without jokers but the whole argument is what joker will be best at allowing you to win and obviously playing jokerless goes against that. Again, if I can succeed with just 'a', 'b', 'c', etc. with very little support, how can you claim 'd', even if it worked with almost anything to achieve the exact same power as the previous 'a' 'b' and 'c' how can you claim it's better?

[HeraldOfOpera]

Publicado originalmente por shrimpnoodles:

Publicado originalmente por author:

Update: Just scored over 44k in one hand.

New to the game I assume? Because 44k in one hand is nothing...

Yeah, that literally loses to Violet Vessel if I recall correctly. Definitely does on higher stakes.

[doingwork]

Publicado originalmente por RazzberryMocha:

Publicado originalmente por GTTV:

My point went way over your head, didn't it? No need to start pulling out incorrectly-applied logic fallacies.

The argument that blueprint isn't the best Joker because you need other jokers to win is completely invalid. It is operating under these false assumptions:
1. That other jokers are implicitly 'better' because they can win a run alone (which is unrealistic - this situation doesn't happen. Ironically, THIS is a nirvana fallacy) and
2. you need other Jokers to win a run with blueprint (you actually don't need any jokers to win a run).

Both of these assumptions are wrong.

This is what I was responding to, for context: "You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory."

In most situations if you are forced to take either blueprint or another joker, most of the time there is another joker that is better, that is the argument being presented. The whole jokerless argument also takes away from everything too. Yes, you can win without jokers but the whole argument is what joker will be best at allowing you to win and obviously playing jokerless goes against that. Again, if I can succeed with just 'a', 'b', 'c', etc. with very little support, how can you claim 'd', even if it worked with almost anything to achieve the exact same power as the previous 'a' 'b' and 'c' how can you claim it's better?

There is no joker that will always be better than all 149 other jokers in every case given a choice between 2 jokers. No doubt. Thats also an extremely unreasonable situation to use.

Given Blueprint vs. a random joker, Blueprint will be superior in MOST situations against MOST jokers. Moreso than any other joker given that context. Thats the point of it being the best joker.

[doingwork]

Publicado originalmente por RipoffPingu:

Publicado originalmente por doingwork:

You mean every run? I can't remember the last time I had a run that WASN'T defined around a specific hand type. That's like the most common strategy. The only times I don't is when I get obelisk in Ante 1 and define a build around it. It's easily one of the most situational jokers in the game. Especially if you find it late in the game and have already invested planets into you specific hand.

obelisk is good in ante 1-3 because you can farm high card/pair/any other weak hand you have and have more than enough other hands you can play to preserve the xmult WHILE still letting you get a very good source of xmult early on. you can even do this up to ante 6, your xmult just won't be as high as it otherwise would be. in my experience, its a very versatile joker that scales well because i don't build around specific hands most the time if i can help it to preserve my versatility. as for planets being invested into a specific hand type, i mostly go for planets to feed constellation or as a backup plan if i can't get my desired hand type.

"I would be STOKED to go into ante 2 with blueprint and brainstorm. Thats insane. Thats grounds for a high-score run in the making."...only for you to realize you're broke, have no scoring jokers, and have to get about 1000 chips with no boost to your multipliers or chips. good luck lol

i understand that you're really, really in love with blueprints versatility. i am as well - i just recognise that you need a worth while card to copy first in order for blueprint to be of any good value. its a secondary option to consider for your build, not the main one - and that, in my eyes, is enough to devalue it enough for quite a few jokers to be above it in the early and mid game, but when i have those jokers blueprint suddenly shoots way up in terms of importance to grab. its usefulness is wholly dependant on the state of the game - if you're not doing very well, you would most likely be better off grabbing something else, but if you ARE doing well, blueprint can easily amplify your build to go even better for a lot longer.

it just needs those good cards first.

My dude I hate to be that guy but Obelisk is a 1-dimensional and situational joker. Saying its versatile is just crazy to me. Yes you can build into it but its highly risky and requires you to find it early and be able to not die while playing high cards to farm the hands played. Have I won with it? Definitely. Do I skip it 90% of the time I run into it? Most definitely. Have I ever skipped blueprint? Absolutely not.

Also there would never be a time I would be going into Ante 2 with less than 3 jokers so your comment about having only Blueprint and Brainstorm is baseless. Of course I would have something else for them to combo on.

[ulzgoroth]

Publicado originalmente por doingwork:

Also there would never be a time I would be going into Ante 2 with less than 3 jokers so your comment about having only Blueprint and Brainstorm is baseless. Of course I would have something else for them to combo on.

Wait, you what?

Unless I see really good jokers, or my first joker is Riff-Raff, I would typically want to avoid going into Ante 2 with more than 1 joker. Less than one joker isn't ideal, but isn't out of the question. $5 saved is a $ earned per blind!

[Atlatlatlatlatlatlatlatlist]

situational is such a magic word. but in some niche case, other humble jokers may beat blueprint.

-when you have joker stencil and blueprint, then you find the ankh from pack.
-build rely on many incompatible jokers, like with shortcut + four fingers + smeared. surely not good build.
-when joker combo take many slots. e.g. banner + merry andy + egg + swashbuckler + Xmult.
-in c++ grind, any joker without gold sticker has highest value.

[doingwork]

Publicado originalmente por ulzgoroth:

Publicado originalmente por doingwork:

Also there would never be a time I would be going into Ante 2 with less than 3 jokers so your comment about having only Blueprint and Brainstorm is baseless. Of course I would have something else for them to combo on.

Wait, you what?

Unless I see really good jokers, or my first joker is Riff-Raff, I would typically want to avoid going into Ante 2 with more than 1 joker. Less than one joker isn't ideal, but isn't out of the question. $5 saved is a $ earned per blind!

You get a free joker on the 1st Big blind because you skip the first small blind with a free joker or free shop tag. Never start a game without doing that (except with white stake or yellow deck I suppose). Then you get the first guaranteed buffoon pack. So I am generally walking into the first boss on Ante 1 with 2 jokers, unless they happened to be very bad. If I had blueprint and Brainstorm I would absolutely look to buy a 3rd after the first boss where I generally have ~$10 to work with.

[doingwork]

Publicado originalmente por Atlatlatlatlatlatlatlatlist:

situational is such a magic word. but in some niche case, other humble jokers may beat blueprint.

-when you have joker stencil and blueprint, then you find the ankh from pack.
-build rely on many incompatible jokers, like with shortcut + four fingers + smeared. surely not good build.
-when joker combo take many slots. e.g. banner + merry andy + egg + swashbuckler + Xmult.
-in c++ grind, any joker without gold sticker has highest value.

Situational means giving any random situation X, could be ante 1-8 (I won't even go to endless), any deck or challenge, any level of $ and # and type of jokers you currently own, what will be worth having or not.

If you have a joker, say obelisk, that requires ante 1-3 to find and other jokers that can help you survive while you spam High Card, then its considered "situational" because in MOST situations you find yourself in when it appears, it won't be a good choice to take. Blueprint will be great in nearly any situation. Can you find some that it won't fit into? Sure, nothing is 100% perfect. But its FAR more useful in any given situation than any other joker and its not even close.

In your "joker combo" example, dropping merry andy for blueprint on your Xmult would be a huge upgrade.

[RipoffPingu]

Publicado originalmente por doingwork:

Publicado originalmente por RipoffPingu:

obelisk is good in ante 1-3 because you can farm high card/pair/any other weak hand you have and have more than enough other hands you can play to preserve the xmult WHILE still letting you get a very good source of xmult early on. you can even do this up to ante 6, your xmult just won't be as high as it otherwise would be. in my experience, its a very versatile joker that scales well because i don't build around specific hands most the time if i can help it to preserve my versatility. as for planets being invested into a specific hand type, i mostly go for planets to feed constellation or as a backup plan if i can't get my desired hand type.

"I would be STOKED to go into ante 2 with blueprint and brainstorm. Thats insane. Thats grounds for a high-score run in the making."...only for you to realize you're broke, have no scoring jokers, and have to get about 1000 chips with no boost to your multipliers or chips. good luck lol

i understand that you're really, really in love with blueprints versatility. i am as well - i just recognise that you need a worth while card to copy first in order for blueprint to be of any good value. its a secondary option to consider for your build, not the main one - and that, in my eyes, is enough to devalue it enough for quite a few jokers to be above it in the early and mid game, but when i have those jokers blueprint suddenly shoots way up in terms of importance to grab. its usefulness is wholly dependant on the state of the game - if you're not doing very well, you would most likely be better off grabbing something else, but if you ARE doing well, blueprint can easily amplify your build to go even better for a lot longer.

it just needs those good cards first.

My dude I hate to be that guy but Obelisk is a 1-dimensional and situational joker. Saying its versatile is just crazy to me. Yes you can build into it but its highly risky and requires you to find it early and be able to not die while playing high cards to farm the hands played. Have I won with it? Definitely. Do I skip it 90% of the time I run into it? Most definitely. Have I ever skipped blueprint? Absolutely not.

Also there would never be a time I would be going into Ante 2 with less than 3 jokers so your comment about having only Blueprint and Brainstorm is baseless. Of course I would have something else for them to combo on.

obelisk... honestly? i'd say its as situational as hologram/lucky cat/constellation, which is to say... not very situational. its Xmult that scales well when you do something with no prerequisite to activate. thats very valuable AND versatile - its a great card if you run into it.

also, getting into ante 2 with "no less than 3 jokers" and always skipping a small blind for a free joker is insane

[doingwork]

Publicado originalmente por RipoffPingu:

Publicado originalmente por doingwork:

My dude I hate to be that guy but Obelisk is a 1-dimensional and situational joker. Saying its versatile is just crazy to me. Yes you can build into it but its highly risky and requires you to find it early and be able to not die while playing high cards to farm the hands played. Have I won with it? Definitely. Do I skip it 90% of the time I run into it? Most definitely. Have I ever skipped blueprint? Absolutely not.

Also there would never be a time I would be going into Ante 2 with less than 3 jokers so your comment about having only Blueprint and Brainstorm is baseless. Of course I would have something else for them to combo on.

obelisk... honestly? i'd say its as situational as hologram/lucky cat/constellation, which is to say... not very situational. its Xmult that scales well when you do something with no prerequisite to activate. thats very valuable AND versatile - its a great card if you run into it.

also, getting into ante 2 with "no less than 3 jokers" and always skipping a small blind for a free joker is insane

Hey if you want to play in a sub-optimal way that leaves you with a weak earlygame by all means. Not for me. Takes 1 second to restart until you get a good starting tag. The first small blind gets you MAX $3. Its pointless to NOT skip the first small blind. Its just smart gameplay.

[Atlatlatlatlatlatlatlatlist]

oh hey we got ante 1 SB skipper and thread go out of the rail more...