Spare Trousers - Possible Best Joker?

[Anzac-A1]

I think Spare Trousers might be the best Joker in the game. Two Pair is such an easy hand to get. By Round 15, I've gotten this thing to a +44 Multi. Combined with my other Jokers, I'm now able to score more thank 20k in a single hand.

Update: Just scored over 44k in one hand.

[RazzberryMocha]

Автор сообщения: GTTV

Автор сообщения: RazzberryMocha

The reason why I say blueprint isn't the best joker and is rather somewhere barely outside of the top 5 is because blueprint, with all of its utility and point-scoring, will still never be worth more than a consistent and versatile x5-8 mult in the vast majority of runs (unless if you pair it with said jokers but that's very obviously not a valid point when directly comparing them).

Blueprint is way more powerful than a x-mult. It can be moved to copy other jokers at any point in time. That means copying burglar when you start a round, burnt when you discard, space when playing a hand, any of the tarot-creating cards to create a second one, any $-making joker, etc. It's strength is in it's flexibility - something which no other joker in the game has (except brainstorm but blueprint is superior)

That extra hand leveling or extra econ sure can contribute to winning if you find them, but a decent scaling Xmult just outright wins the run instead more often than blueprint in the same scenarios. Yes, versatility is an incredible factor to consider, but in comparison blueprint is good in almost 100% of builds whereas scaling Xmults are good in 95% of builds. As I have said multiple times before, a consistently available x5-8 before ante 8 is going to get your run significantly farther more consistently than blueprint would. At the end of the day the target score is the only thing that matters and blueprint is clearly outmatched by multiple other jokers.

[Ronald Brain]

So many people got it wrong about Blueprint (and Brainstorm, for that matter) beats everything. There are A LOT of caveat that makes them "good" Jokers, but definitely can't be "best":
-On their own, they do nothing. That's it, nothing. Having both Blueprint + Brainstorm entering Ante 2 and you'd wish you've picked up that Mystic Summit or Smiley Face you skipped earlier.
-They're expensive ($10, more with editions). More often than not you won't be able to afford them during Ante 1, or you'll be left with nothing to pick up another Joker and die on Ante 2.

You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory.

[doingwork]

Автор сообщения: RipoffPingu

Автор сообщения: doingwork

I gotta say its very interesting to see people favoring very contextual cards like hologram and lucky cat, then saying that blueprint is situational. Everyone sees the game differently I guess. I thought it was no-brainer obvious that blueprint is the best joker but it's interesting to see differing viewpoints.

Like saying you would take obelisk over blueprint on Ante 5. Obelisk is an extreeeemly situational joker that requires you to play in a very specific way. I just dont see myself, on ante 5, give me 100 games in 100 different situations, not a SINGLE one of those would I consider obelisk over blueprint. Or saying "blueprint doesn't help you win." I don't understand, if you have a joker that you benefit from, now you get double the benefit. More in-fact since you can move it around and get benefit from multiple different jokers given the context.

I enjoy the discussion around it though and it's making me think about it more. I guess I just am thinking more objectively about it, given the average scenario.

the reason why i'd say i'd take obelisk over blueprint if forced to make the choice is because it scales VERY well and isn't very situational at all; it just requires you to play a hand that isn't your most played hand, which is... really not at all "extremely situational". sure, this is useless if your build is centered around a very specific hand type,

You mean every run? I can't remember the last time I had a run that WASN'T defined around a specific hand type. That's like the most common strategy. The only times I don't is when I get obelisk in Ante 1 and define a build around it. It's easily one of the most situational jokers in the game. Especially if you find it late in the game and have already invested planets into you specific hand.

I still don't understand this whole "needs a good joker to scale with" to make blueprint good. No it doesn't. It makes ANY joker doubled. Even if you have bad ones. Bad jokers that get doubled suddenly can become good. Good enough for you to find a "good" joker. I think people forget things like Mail-in-rebate or Faceless joker suddenly giving you double the money and things like that as well.

Blueprint is absolutely run-winning. People keep mentioning different jokers but blueprint takes a good joker and makes it suddenly "hands-off-the-wheel" win status. Like Card Sharp or Acrobat or Burglar. The thing is blueprint can fit into ANY situation and make it tremendously better.

[doingwork]

Автор сообщения: Ronald Brain

So many people got it wrong about Blueprint (and Brainstorm, for that matter) beats everything. There are A LOT of caveat that makes them "good" Jokers, but definitely can't be "best":
-On their own, they do nothing. That's it, nothing. Having both Blueprint + Brainstorm entering Ante 2 and you'd wish you've picked up that Mystic Summit or Smiley Face you skipped earlier.
-They're expensive ($10, more with editions). More often than not you won't be able to afford them during Ante 1, or you'll be left with nothing to pick up another Joker and die on Ante 2.

You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory.

That's like saying DNA is bad because without tarot cards to make steel or glass DNA is bad on its own. Who cares that blueprint does nothing on its own? Unless you are playing a self-imposed solo-joker game you will get value out of it.

I would be STOKED to go into ante 2 with blueprint and brainstorm. Thats insane. Thats grounds for a high-score run in the making.

[RazzberryMocha]

Автор сообщения: doingwork

Автор сообщения: RipoffPingu

the reason why i'd say i'd take obelisk over blueprint if forced to make the choice is because it scales VERY well and isn't very situational at all; it just requires you to play a hand that isn't your most played hand, which is... really not at all "extremely situational". sure, this is useless if your build is centered around a very specific hand type,

I still don't understand this whole "needs a good joker to scale with" to make blueprint good. No it doesn't. It makes ANY joker doubled. Even if you have bad ones. Bad jokers that get doubled suddenly can become good. Good enough for you to find a "good" joker. I think people forget things like Mail-in-rebate or Faceless joker suddenly giving you double the money and things like that as well.

Blueprint is absolutely run-winning. People keep mentioning different jokers but blueprint takes a good joker and makes it suddenly "hands-off-the-wheel" win status. Like Card Sharp or Acrobat or Burglar. The thing is blueprint can fit into ANY situation and make it tremendously better.

No one is arguing against this point, blueprint is absurd and adds a ton to a run. The whole reason why other jokers would be considered better is that when comparing something that needs to be paired with something else to achieve the same level something else can do by itself it isn't a competition.
For example, say you need to reach 'a' points and that can be done through either using 'b' or through combining 'c' and any high enough variable. In no world is combining 'c' and another variable a better or more likely to happen approach than just using 'b'. Even the additional extra benefits of 'c' can be dismissed as being worse than 'b', as the whole point of those are to achieve the same end result 'a'.

[Atlatlatlatlatlatlatlatlist]

seems thread focus for possible best joker, not spare trousers.

well, blueprint is be like hanging chad, if you have good partner like glass card or photograph it's best joker in the world. but without any of them, just below average chip joker. fortunately you can find tarot or "when scored" joker easily.
and it can't overcome debuff. once countered at strategy level, it can't do anything. it's just amplifier, not the main engine.

[Cryptid]

I'm not even very good and my best hand was 66 billion, 20k is nothing. That being said I usually just barely scrape past the ante 8 boss blind, I only got such a high score once because I had red seal glass holographic queens, hanging chad, sock and buskin, photograph, and blueprint.

[GTTV]

Автор сообщения: Ronald Brain

You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory.

Which joker will win a run completely by itself? Your point is invalid

By the way, you can technically win a run without any joker (there's even a challenge for it).

[ahsido1]

My first gold stake win was with 2 eternal trousers (one negative) and an eternal stencil and madness. it was really funny to me because it was the checkered deck, so i didn't even do anything remotely flush based.

[ahsido1]

spare trousers discussion. looks inside. blueprint discussion. O_O

[RazzberryMocha]

Автор сообщения: GTTV

Автор сообщения: Ronald Brain

You can win a run without Blueprint / Brainstorm, but you certain won't win a run with only Blueprint / Brainstorm in your inventory.

Which joker will win a run completely by itself? Your point is invalid

By the way, you can technically win a run without any joker (there's even a challenge for it).

I see the reasoning and even agree with some of the points others have made, but this is pretty bad. How in two sentences did you manage to invoke both false equivalence and nirvana fallacy?

[shawnwall]

lol just won my first run with it

[malogoss]

Автор сообщения: shawnwall

lol just won my first run with it

GG!

[shrimpnoodles]

Автор сообщения: author

Update: Just scored over 44k in one hand.

New to the game I assume? Because 44k in one hand is nothing...

[RipoffPingu]

Автор сообщения: doingwork

Автор сообщения: RipoffPingu

the reason why i'd say i'd take obelisk over blueprint if forced to make the choice is because it scales VERY well and isn't very situational at all; it just requires you to play a hand that isn't your most played hand, which is... really not at all "extremely situational". sure, this is useless if your build is centered around a very specific hand type,

You mean every run? I can't remember the last time I had a run that WASN'T defined around a specific hand type. That's like the most common strategy. The only times I don't is when I get obelisk in Ante 1 and define a build around it. It's easily one of the most situational jokers in the game. Especially if you find it late in the game and have already invested planets into you specific hand.

obelisk is good in ante 1-3 because you can farm high card/pair/any other weak hand you have and have more than enough other hands you can play to preserve the xmult WHILE still letting you get a very good source of xmult early on. you can even do this up to ante 6, your xmult just won't be as high as it otherwise would be. in my experience, its a very versatile joker that scales well because i don't build around specific hands most the time if i can help it to preserve my versatility. as for planets being invested into a specific hand type, i mostly go for planets to feed constellation or as a backup plan if i can't get my desired hand type.

"I still don't understand this whole "needs a good joker to scale with" to make blueprint good. No it doesn't. It makes ANY joker doubled." ...yes, and quite a few effects aren't really a good idea to double when you can instead grab a scaling multiplier joker instead. why double your multi with blueprint + ride the bus on abandoned deck when you can get holographic, get 4x the multi, and THEN get blueprint later because you last longer? yes, blueprint is stupidly versatile, but it does nothing by itself - it cannot win you a run unless you're either boosting an economy card or already near the edge of defeat, and if its boosting an economy card its likely not helping with scoring either.

"I would be STOKED to go into ante 2 with blueprint and brainstorm. Thats insane. Thats grounds for a high-score run in the making."...only for you to realize you're broke, have no scoring jokers, and have to get about 1000 chips with no boost to your multipliers or chips. good luck lol

i understand that you're really, really in love with blueprints versatility. i am as well - i just recognise that you need a worth while card to copy first in order for blueprint to be of any good value. its a secondary option to consider for your build, not the main one - and that, in my eyes, is enough to devalue it enough for quite a few jokers to be above it in the early and mid game, but when i have those jokers blueprint suddenly shoots way up in terms of importance to grab. its usefulness is wholly dependant on the state of the game - if you're not doing very well, you would most likely be better off grabbing something else, but if you ARE doing well, blueprint can easily amplify your build to go even better for a lot longer.

it just needs those good cards first.