Great run, great build, sorry you lose

[Effluvial Kraken]

Hey, I'm back after quitting in protest of perishable jokers being added. Turns out I was overreacting. Now I'd like to overreact about something else: Violet Vessel.

So I had a Green Joker with over +30 mult, Runner with over 300 chips, Blue Joker for 80+ chips, Card Sharp for 3X mult, and POLYCHROME RAMEN for 1.5X and 2X mult. I also had 5 hands and several levels in high card, so it all added up to a maximum potential of around 950,000 chips.

NOT ENOUGH FOR VIOLET VESSEL THOUGH. Realistically, if you see Violet Vessel, then your run has just ended due to bad RNG. I had $80 in the bank and rolled all the way down, finding absolutely nothing that could disable the boss blind. At no point in the entire run was the boss reroll voucher ever offered.

Now I'd like to remind you that there's an ante 8 boss blind that literally just debuffs all your playing cards. There's one that shuffles your jokers around, meaning that it usually hinders you for 1 hand before you nullify it by briefly paying attention. So the difficulty of ante 8 boss blinds randomly ranges from "nothing" to "DIE".

I get that the randomness helps maintain your interest in the long run, but I'm really tired of ante 8 just having this Russian Roulette element where sometimes you basically just get executed regardless of what you do. It's damn frustrating when you're really happy with your build and your RNG, right up until you hit ante 8 and learn that you were doomed from the start.

[Lickizard]

Originally posted by RazzberryMocha:

Originally posted by Lickizard:

You can disable extra big blinds?

Luchador and Chicot just set them to be the same requirement as the small blind (ante 8 violet vessel goes from 1.2 mil to 200k).

Good to know thanks,

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by Lickizard:

But barely anything consistent gives greater than a 30+ flat with practically the only reliable jokers being scalars.

The steel card is nice but it only multiplies 'on-score' jokers like Fibonacci (Each played Ace, 2, 3, 5, or 8 gives +8 Mult when scored). If you use something like Tarot or Green joker is will multiply before they apply the +multi (Baron: 1.5x multi for every king in hand. Also has this problem, it essentially turns every king into a steel card it should honestly be a uncommon).

Its definetly doable but I'm not comfortable with how many runs are just doomed from the start due to all the RNG if you get violet vessel. Early jokers can't have rental or eternal, scaling jokers shouldn't have rental and can't have perishable, strong late game jokers acquired early or mid can't have perishable or rental.

I don't feel like all of these changes at once are needed but I feel like red deck +2 discard, sticker chance lowered to 15% (if rentals are kept), removal of rentals (sticker chance 25%, change reroll price to $4 (you earn 13 with max interest, first hand victory on a boss fight that leaves $13 for packs if you are scaling with them and rerolls which are needed to give a statistical chance of hitting multiplicatives), have skip blinds for hands target hands that your hand frequently contains or the most used hand itself (excluding pair and high card) and I feel like the first bafoon pack should be immune to stickers as they usually kill most cards you get.

Edit: also change wheel of fortune to 50%, polychrome is only 3.5% and holo is 8.75% per use of wheel so its not very strong rn or maybe make nope give $1 instead.

Even with a typical high card build (basic chips flat mult xmult kind of run) violet vessel is quite passable given how you build, in fact I'd consider it the 2nd worse ante 8 boss behind crimson heart (though 2nd place isn't absurd given that the other three are barely bosses at all). Sure, sometimes you're just scraping by and could hit 400k but vessel ends your run. Typically though, a good gold stake player will not only try to build towards beating 1.2 mil but will see better opportunities to do so (both because they'll have better econ and because they'll recognize win cons better). There is a balance you are constantly maintaining with risk and reward. Choose to play too safe and consistent and sometimes you'll struggle to keep up with the scaling, choose to play too risky and you'll die to a volatile blind like the water (or just straight up not drawing well, betting everything on a specific joker appearing, etc.). Learning how to maximize reward and minimize risk is how you get good at the game.

[CMDR Shven]

Originally posted by Lickizard:

I don't feel like all of these changes at once are needed but I feel like red deck +2 discard, sticker chance lowered to 15% (if rentals are kept), removal of rentals (sticker chance 25%, change reroll price to $4 (you earn 13 with max interest, first hand victory on a boss fight that leaves $13 for packs if you are scaling with them and rerolls which are needed to give a statistical chance of hitting multiplicatives), have skip blinds for hands target hands that your hand frequently contains or the most used hand itself (excluding pair and high card) and I feel like the first bafoon pack should be immune to stickers as they usually kill most cards you get.

Edit: also change wheel of fortune to 50%, polychrome is only 3.5% and holo is 8.75% per use of wheel so its not very strong rn or maybe make nope give $1 instead.

And yet even without all these insane nerfs and buffs a lot of people have still managed to get all the achievements in the game so clearly it's not too hard, it's just harder than you want it to be.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Originally posted by CMDR Shven:

Originally posted by Lickizard:

I don't feel like all of these changes at once are needed but I feel like red deck +2 discard, sticker chance lowered to 15% (if rentals are kept), removal of rentals (sticker chance 25%, change reroll price to $4 (you earn 13 with max interest, first hand victory on a boss fight that leaves $13 for packs if you are scaling with them and rerolls which are needed to give a statistical chance of hitting multiplicatives), have skip blinds for hands target hands that your hand frequently contains or the most used hand itself (excluding pair and high card) and I feel like the first bafoon pack should be immune to stickers as they usually kill most cards you get.

Edit: also change wheel of fortune to 50%, polychrome is only 3.5% and holo is 8.75% per use of wheel so its not very strong rn or maybe make nope give $1 instead.

And yet even without all these insane nerfs and buffs a lot of people have still managed to get all the achievements in the game so clearly it's not too hard, it's just harder than you want it to be.

10% achievement rate for winning on the highest difficulty is actually pretty easy by the standards of the genre.

[snakeskip]

Originally posted by Lickizard:

Its definetly doable but I'm not comfortable with how many runs are just doomed from the start due to all the RNG if you get violet vessel.

No, you're not doomed. Some people get 40+ game win streaks on Gold Stake.

Anyway, Violet Vessel can be brutal. It sucks to see the Vessel when you have a decent build that would comfortably beat any other final boss. Sometimes decent isn't enough.

[HeraldOfOpera]

Seriously though, it's not a "great" run or build if it loses to the boss that's just a big number with no other gimmicks in a game all about making number go up.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by malogoss:

Blue Joker was bad.
+30 mult from Green joker is low.

Seeing it as a 950k potential is kind of generous, unless your HC level was higher than you're making it look like.

Next time move your jokers around, scale green joker more by playing more hands each round, and that was a win. Replace Blue joker with one of many possible upgrades, even just a Raised Fist would have done a better job.. Or find Luchador. Find Mr Bones.

In the end sure, VV can be brutal, but it seems like you had a concrete chance of beating it. No need to overreact. :tta_smile_very_happy:

Oh man this represents everything I hate about Balatro Steam discussions. Dude barely reads what I wrote at all, tells me to do what I said I already did, and assumes he knows better about a game that I played and he didn't even see.

950k was the score that I got on the blind just before the Violet Vessel. It's not some estimate. I spent the entirety of Ante 8 searching for Luchador or Mr. Bones, slow-rolling the first blind and burning my entire cash stack on the second, and couldn't find either.

Edit: I should also call out that the post completely ignores the overall point, in favor of going "PSSHH you're just bad I bet"

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

Originally posted by malogoss:

Blue Joker was bad.
+30 mult from Green joker is low.

Seeing it as a 950k potential is kind of generous, unless your HC level was higher than you're making it look like.

Next time move your jokers around, scale green joker more by playing more hands each round, and that was a win. Replace Blue joker with one of many possible upgrades, even just a Raised Fist would have done a better job.. Or find Luchador. Find Mr Bones.

In the end sure, VV can be brutal, but it seems like you had a concrete chance of beating it. No need to overreact. :tta_smile_very_happy:

Oh man this represents everything I hate about Balatro Steam discussions. Dude barely reads what I wrote at all, tells me to do what I said I already did, and assumes he knows better about a game that I played and he didn't even see.

950k was the score that I got on the blind just before the Violet Vessel. It's not some estimate. I spent the entirety of Ante 8 searching for Luchador or Mr. Bones, slow-rolling the first blind and burning my entire cash stack on the second, and couldn't find either.

Edit: I should also call out that the post completely ignores the overall point, in favor of going "PSSHH you're just bad I bet"

If you knew you could beat any ante 8 boss besides violet vessel than you should've been looking for answers long before ante 8 anyways. Just a single Xmult joker, burglar, a good flat mult such as half joker, or one of the two boss-cheesers would've been enough.
Also, as has been stated previously, a +30 green joker is practically nothing. Also also, can you really be upset that violet vessel is a counter to the lower scoring but less risky playstyles? You chose to maintain very little risk during your run and got rewarded with very little reward.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by RazzberryMocha:

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

Oh man this represents everything I hate about Balatro Steam discussions. Dude barely reads what I wrote at all, tells me to do what I said I already did, and assumes he knows better about a game that I played and he didn't even see.

950k was the score that I got on the blind just before the Violet Vessel. It's not some estimate. I spent the entirety of Ante 8 searching for Luchador or Mr. Bones, slow-rolling the first blind and burning my entire cash stack on the second, and couldn't find either.

Edit: I should also call out that the post completely ignores the overall point, in favor of going "PSSHH you're just bad I bet"

If you knew you could beat any ante 8 boss besides violet vessel than you should've been looking for answers long before ante 8 anyways. Just a single Xmult joker, burglar, a good flat mult such as half joker, or one of the two boss-cheesers would've been enough.
Also, as has been stated previously, a +30 green joker is practically nothing. Also also, can you really be upset that violet vessel is a counter to the lower scoring but less risky playstyles? You chose to maintain very little risk during your run and got rewarded with very little reward.

I think it's just so unpleasant for you to try to lecture me about a game that you didn't see, to the point that you have to make up a bunch of assumptions about the decisions that were made just so that you can pretend to know better. I think that the idea of "lower scoring but less risky playstyles" in Balatro is complete nonsense with no relation to reality, and that this concept only exists to you so that you can pretend that every loss in Balatro is deserved. I don't think that you actually have much to add to the conversation because it's clear that nothing can persuade you from your conclusion.

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

Originally posted by RazzberryMocha:

If you knew you could beat any ante 8 boss besides violet vessel than you should've been looking for answers long before ante 8 anyways. Just a single Xmult joker, burglar, a good flat mult such as half joker, or one of the two boss-cheesers would've been enough.
Also, as has been stated previously, a +30 green joker is practically nothing. Also also, can you really be upset that violet vessel is a counter to the lower scoring but less risky playstyles? You chose to maintain very little risk during your run and got rewarded with very little reward.

I think it's just so unpleasant for you to try to lecture me about a game that you didn't see, to the point that you have to make up a bunch of assumptions about the decisions that were made just so that you can pretend to know better. I think that the idea of "lower scoring but less risky playstyles" in Balatro is complete nonsense with no relation to reality, and that this concept only exists to you so that you can pretend that every loss in Balatro is deserved. I don't think that you actually have much to add to the conversation because it's clear that nothing can persuade you from your conclusion.

idk man you literally provided the details of your run down to the numbers on your scaling jokers, seems like enough of a view to at the very least attempt to provide some insight. Maybe instead of assuming that you know everything about the game and complaining about a non-issue you listen to the loads of advice people have given you.
The only thing a know-it-all mindset will do is make you run in circles.
Also, the point of risk/reward is totally accurate. If you look at all of the hand types top to bottom you will see it goes from high scores, but harder to achieve to lower scores, but easier to achieve (with flush being an exception of course). This also translates to jokers. Jokers like green, ride the bus, and red card aren't strong because they score absurd amounts of chips, they're strong because they're consistent and easier to achieve in most scenarios than most other jokers. There is a reason that duo and tribe are x2, trio and order are x3, and family is x4, the riskier the playstyle the greater your reward. By choosing to play a high card build you should be under the impression that you are more limited than other builds, and good players will know when the safest play is to play towards riskier strategies, yet you can't (or rather refuse to) comprehend that.

[Effluvial Kraken]

Originally posted by RazzberryMocha:

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

I think it's just so unpleasant for you to try to lecture me about a game that you didn't see, to the point that you have to make up a bunch of assumptions about the decisions that were made just so that you can pretend to know better. I think that the idea of "lower scoring but less risky playstyles" in Balatro is complete nonsense with no relation to reality, and that this concept only exists to you so that you can pretend that every loss in Balatro is deserved. I don't think that you actually have much to add to the conversation because it's clear that nothing can persuade you from your conclusion.

idk man you literally provided the details of your run down to the numbers on your scaling jokers, seems like enough of a view to at the very least attempt to provide some insight. Maybe instead of assuming that you know everything about the game and complaining about a non-issue you listen to the loads of advice people have given you.
The only thing a know-it-all mindset will do is make you run in circles.
Also, the point of risk/reward is totally accurate. If you look at all of the hand types top to bottom you will see it goes from high scores, but harder to achieve to lower scores, but easier to achieve (with flush being an exception of course). This also translates to jokers. Jokers like green, ride the bus, and red card aren't strong because they score absurd amounts of chips, they're strong because they're consistent and easier to achieve in most scenarios than most other jokers. There is a reason that duo and tribe are x2, trio and order are x3, and family is x4, the riskier the playstyle the greater your reward. By choosing to play a high card build you should be under the impression that you are more limited than other builds, and good players will know when the safest play is to play towards riskier strategies, yet you can't (or rather refuse to) comprehend that.

The sum total of all advice so far has been "roll for these jokers" and then if I say "but I did roll for them" then the advice becomes "roll sooner for these jokers". Only you have said to do anything else, and what you're saying seems to be "aim for a flush five build from the start solely and exclusively in case you run into Violet Vessel", which is obviously nonsense.

Very few have actually engaged with the topic of this thread, which is whether Violet Vessel is actually balanced and whether it should be changed.

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

Originally posted by RazzberryMocha:

idk man you literally provided the details of your run down to the numbers on your scaling jokers, seems like enough of a view to at the very least attempt to provide some insight. Maybe instead of assuming that you know everything about the game and complaining about a non-issue you listen to the loads of advice people have given you.
The only thing a know-it-all mindset will do is make you run in circles.
Also, the point of risk/reward is totally accurate. If you look at all of the hand types top to bottom you will see it goes from high scores, but harder to achieve to lower scores, but easier to achieve (with flush being an exception of course). This also translates to jokers. Jokers like green, ride the bus, and red card aren't strong because they score absurd amounts of chips, they're strong because they're consistent and easier to achieve in most scenarios than most other jokers. There is a reason that duo and tribe are x2, trio and order are x3, and family is x4, the riskier the playstyle the greater your reward. By choosing to play a high card build you should be under the impression that you are more limited than other builds, and good players will know when the safest play is to play towards riskier strategies, yet you can't (or rather refuse to) comprehend that.

The sum total of all advice so far has been "roll for these jokers" and then if I say "but I did roll for them" then the advice becomes "roll sooner for these jokers". Only you have said to do anything else, and what you're saying seems to be "aim for a flush five build from the start solely and exclusively in case you run into Violet Vessel", which is obviously nonsense.

Very few have actually engaged with the topic of this thread, which is whether Violet Vessel is actually balanced and whether it should be changed.

Ah yes, because we should only judge things by their extremes. It is definitely unreasonable to balance your risk and reward by playing hand types such as straights. Runs are totally determined by what you want to do at the beginning and opportunities to pivot into stronger hand types is a myth. Obviously no build besides turbo-optimal builds are capable of scoring 1.2 mil.
As I said before, during your run you knew only one thing could possibly stop you for mutiple antes, why didn't you take any measures to play around that? Instead, you stuck to your build which held a fatal flaw and got upset when said fatal flaw showed itself. Learning how to pivot is one of the most powerful but difficult skills to learn in this game, there's no shame in admitting you don't know how to do it. Instead, you stuck with a doomed strategy and threw a fit when the game mechanic designed to challenge your skills proceeded to challenge your lack of skill. If you need to pray that you don't get a 20% chance when you reach ante 8 then that's proof of a bad build.
If you want my honest thoughts on violet vessel, I'll tell you it's a fair challenge that punishes a certain playstyle (you know, like 90% of the boss blinds are meant to do). A run that is too weak to where it is barely surviving or a run that is incapable of pivoting is a bad build, and I feel it's fair to punish players who use a bad build.
Sure, your run could've won if it weren't violet vessel, but you can make that kind of excuse for any run. Taking accountability for your shortcomings is how you improve as a player.

[RipoffPingu]

Originally posted by Effluvial Kraken:

The sum total of all advice so far has been "roll for these jokers" and then if I say "but I did roll for them" then the advice becomes "roll sooner for these jokers". Only you have said to do anything else, and what you're saying seems to be "aim for a flush five build from the start solely and exclusively in case you run into Violet Vessel", which is obviously nonsense.

they didn't say that. at all. this is you reaching to the logical extremes of what they're saying in an effort to try to disprove their point rather than actually trying to listen to advice people are willingly giving you. like razzberry said, you have to take accountability for having a skill issue - i do this constantly as a new (read: sub 20 hours playtime) player because i recognise there's a lot to learn still in the game. don't try to make an excuse to not learn in a game, you will only be worse off.

as for whether violet vessel is balanced, im gonna be completely honest, its just a slightly more scary version of the wall, which... isn't really scary. they both get hard countered by one good scaling mult joker (i.e hologram, throwback, etc.) or two mediocre ones - throw in something that adds even just an okay amount of base mult (i.e scholar with an ace deck like what i got last night, or walkie talkie with a 10/4/both deck respectively) and you're pretty likely to demolish it in one hand, and failing that somehow, two.

i've genuinely had more trouble getting good economy jokers early game for the run to not die than dealing with violet vessel.

don't be complacent. always continue learning.

[Dr. Cheesefart]

Users like CMDR Shven and RazzberryMocha hang out on this forum anytime and just complain about how others play, it's pathetic. Meanwhile I doubt they play the game themselves and are just here to troll. lol

Their advice has the same content as "put your head on the keyboard roll it over".

[RipoffPingu]

Originally posted by Dildo STONKS:

Users like CMDR Shven and RazzberryMocha hang out on this forum anytime and just complain about how others play, it's pathetic. Meanwhile I doubt they play the game themselves and are just here to troll. lol

Their advice has the same content as "put your head on the keyboard roll it over".

do you have any source for the claim they don't play the game, especially considering they have the mouse next to their username on the forums (indicating that they do actually own the game)?

also, i haven't seen any of this advice be comparable to "put your head on the keyboard and roll it over", nor have i see them complain about how others play the game; rather, i've just seen them give advice.