Frustration Engine

[w0rM.9™]

Too frequently this game feels unfair. You play a round for 45 minutes only to have some ridiculous boss blind kill you on the last hand. I've been working on Green Stake for weeks with zero wins. Every time I get close I get some BS boss blind screws me over. Flip all the jokers and rearrange them? That nullifies pretty much everything you've worked on.

I don't mind that there's an element of luck to the game but there are too many critical scenarios you just can't prepare for. It feels unfair and for me, nothing could be more frustrating. Spending that much time only to have the rug randomly pulled from under me at the last minute doesn't make the game better. It makes it feel random, pointless and like a complete waste of time.

Just make take. I love the game but it's getting to the point that I'm not getting any enjoyment out of it due to the massive shortcomings of the game design.

[w0rM.9™]

If anyone has any advice specific to the green stake it would be greatly appreciated. I've probably got 30 or 40 tries at this difficulty and I'm getting nowhere. I've watched the Balatro University videos and that was helpful (although the guy is insanely longwinded) but I'm clearly missing some kind of vital information. I have zero trouble with any of the white or red stakes. I can pretty much win those at will.

This is why the game is so frustrating to me. Most well crafted games give you some kind of feedback about what you're doing wrong when you fail. If Balatro is doing this, i must be missing it.

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by w0rM.9™:

If anyone has any advice specific to the green stake it would be greatly appreciated. I've probably got 30 or 40 tries at this difficulty and I'm getting nowhere. I've watched the Balatro University videos and that was helpful (although the guy is insanely longwinded) but I'm clearly missing some kind of vital information. I have zero trouble with any of the white or red stakes. I can pretty much win those at will.

This is why the game is so frustrating to me. Most well crafted games give you some kind of feedback about what you're doing wrong when you fail. If Balatro is doing this, i must be missing it.

1. Try to get to establish interest fast and try not to dip below it when possible.
2. Understand where your point scoring comes from. Your jokers, cards, and hand levels all contribute to your score and it doesn't matter where it comes from as long as you're meeting the required points. You can negate the need for a chip joker by having a highly leveled hand, you can negate the need for hand levels by having all of your points come from jokers, etc.
This is also useful to know for certain boss blinds. It's good to know when to be scared of the flint or verdant leaf and when you can just win without giving them a second thought.
3. If you're afraid of a certain boss blind don't be afraid to spend below interest. Better to look for an answer that guarantees you win and build up econ after than risk losing with a full wallet.
4. Understand what jokers are good and which are good enough. Just picking up the +4 mult joker in the first shop will help you not die and will save tons with extra hand money.
5. Don't be afraid to commit to an eternal joker, even early on. It's very possible to win with just 4 or even 3 joker slots with any kind of build so don't be afraid to pick up something to prolong the run even if it's dead weight later.
6. Not so much of a game tip, but I like to ask myself what my build lacked whenever I lose. By identifying something as simple as my high card build was only scoring 75 chips every hand I'll realize that just 75 more chips would literally double my score and also that I chose to ignore some chip jokers earlier in the run because I didn't see their potential. Remembering that kind of stuff is how you improve at this game.

[Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos]

After something like 60-70 hours in the game, I definitely half-agree with OP.

But the way I'd say it: there's WAY too much RNG, yes, even for a roguelike.

There are way too many jokers that are really bad, compared to some that are INCREDIBLY strong. I'd say that 80-90% of jokers are plain bad...

There's also too many things that will ruin a run... I don't see stuff that ruin runs in Hades, Vampire Survivor, Wizard Of Legend 1, Pesticide Not Required, etc...

"Hey, this run, I'm gonna build a deck with Baron, I'll get as many kings as I can, using tarot cards as much as I can, etc." -> Last boss blind = face cards debuffed. Yeah, this is really fun :D!

I get why it became viral, the concept of the game is fun but A TON of balancing needs to be done.

My take would be:
1- make a system like in Vampire Survivors, where you can BAN jokers (and maybe even a few boss blinds?)
2- make boss blinds rerollable ONCE without any voucher needed (then, the two vouchers that improve that = reroll as much as you want AND rerolling boss blinds is less expansive).
3- balance the challenges more. I got "no discard" on my first good Golden Needle run. Yikes... Instantly killed it.

I wanna hear people's opinion on my take, but if you haven't beaten "Golden Needle" and "Jokerless" = welp, maybe you haven't truly explored how frustrating this game can become.

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos:

After something like 60-70 hours in the game, I definitely half-agree with OP.

But the way I'd say it: there's WAY too much RNG, yes, even for a roguelike.

There are way too many jokers that are really bad, compared to some that are INCREDIBLY strong. I'd say that 80-90% of jokers are plain bad...

There's also too many things that will ruin a run... I don't see stuff that ruin runs in Hades, Vampire Survivor, Wizard Of Legend 1, Pesticide Not Required, etc...

"Hey, this run, I'm gonna build a deck with Baron, I'll get as many kings as I can, using tarot cards as much as I can, etc." -> Last boss blind = face cards debuffed. Yeah, this is really fun :D!

I get why it became viral, the concept of the game is fun but A TON of balancing needs to be done.

My take would be:
1- make a system like in Vampire Survivors, where you can BAN jokers (and maybe even a few boss blinds?)
2- make boss blinds rerollable ONCE without any voucher needed (then, the two vouchers that improve that = reroll as much as you want AND rerolling boss blinds is less expansive).
3- balance the challenges more. I got "no discard" on my first good Golden Needle run. Yikes... Instantly killed it.

I wanna hear people's opinion on my take, but if you haven't beaten "Golden Needle" and "Jokerless" = welp, maybe you haven't truly explored how frustrating this game can become.

I'd argue quite the opposite, literally every joker besides 2-3 are great even on gold stake given context and understanding that context is important for winning runs consistently (even those 2-3 "bad" jokers still have good use cases, they just tend to be way too niche). Any point scoring joker is great early, as any point scoring boost means you get out of rounds quicker and therefore earn more money from leftover hands (just the +4 mult joker will allow you to leave ante 1 with a whopping $23 dollars, even more if you're playing blue/green/yellow deck).
As for boss blinds countering you, it's entirely dependent on your approach to a run. If you choose to play photochad or baron then you have chosen to play a build that is incredibly powerful but is inherently risky due to certain boss blinds. Besides the obvious reroll vouchers/skip tag, luchador, or mr bones there is still a lot you can do in this situation. As you get better you'll start to make builds that are more capable of pivoting, such where you can easily swap out one joker with another and achieve similar results. You may also find an alternative to beating the blind. The plant hard counters photochad but getting a single justice in three shops is achievable and should allow you to clear without any new jokers. You can also just not build into riskier hands unless you know it's safe to do so, since boss blinds won't appear twice if you see the window early then diamonds are a safe suit to rely on.

[CMDR Shven]

Originally posted by Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos:

After something like 60-70 hours in the game, I definitely half-agree with OP.

But the way I'd say it: there's WAY too much RNG, yes, even for a roguelike.

There are way too many jokers that are really bad, compared to some that are INCREDIBLY strong. I'd say that 80-90% of jokers are plain bad...

There's also too many things that will ruin a run... I don't see stuff that ruin runs in Hades, Vampire Survivor, Wizard Of Legend 1, Pesticide Not Required, etc...

"Hey, this run, I'm gonna build a deck with Baron, I'll get as many kings as I can, using tarot cards as much as I can, etc." -> Last boss blind = face cards debuffed. Yeah, this is really fun :D!

I get why it became viral, the concept of the game is fun but A TON of balancing needs to be done.

My take would be:
1- make a system like in Vampire Survivors, where you can BAN jokers (and maybe even a few boss blinds?)
2- make boss blinds rerollable ONCE without any voucher needed (then, the two vouchers that improve that = reroll as much as you want AND rerolling boss blinds is less expansive).
3- balance the challenges more. I got "no discard" on my first good Golden Needle run. Yikes... Instantly killed it.

I wanna hear people's opinion on my take, but if you haven't beaten "Golden Needle" and "Jokerless" = welp, maybe you haven't truly explored how frustrating this game can become.

Going fully into one specific strategy when you have not yet seen the boss blind that could potentially hard counter it is a risk and a player choice. It's usually advisable to pivot into a particular build if possible after passing its respective counter boss and to always keep a plan B when you've not yet seen it. Allowing people to ban boss blinds would just reduce the variation in what people play because most players would probably choose to block the same three or four bosses and then try to force a particular build every single run rather than adapting to what they're given which is clearly the intention of the game design.

I do agree that having the boss reroll voucher or something comparable by default would be a minor improvement to the game. Maybe by default a boss could be rerolled for $20-25 once per run and the vouchercwould reduce the cost to 10 and allow once per ante.

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by CMDR Shven:

I do agree that having the boss reroll voucher or something comparable by default would be a minor improvement to the game. Maybe by default a boss could be rerolled for $20-25 once per run and the vouchercwould reduce the cost to 10 and allow once per ante.

I think that if you really wanted to implement that feature it should probably be something much greater like $50. At that much it's still achievable when you enter an ante with $25 before the boss blind and would add a neat dynamic of riskier playstyles deciding to save up lots of useless cash to ensure safety. Even then, $50 might be too cheap and easily reached for such a strong mechanic and the increase would make it a meaningful decision.

[Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos]

@Razzberry
Well I won't see luchador (and similar boss blind counters) on a ton of runs. There are 150 after all, I can't reroll 2-3 times per round unless I have a money making joker... I can't disagree that a baron run WOULD be risky but from what I understand, it's also the only way to get to ante 32 (or something like that). I see that you've definitely played more than me but come on dude, just answer this: should the "no discard" boss blind be in "Golden Needle"? AND is the came PERFECTLY balanced? Perfectly does not mean "good" or "great", mind you. It means that it is absolutely perfect and simply can never be improved.

@CMDR
I don't see why going for very similar builds over and over is NOT something that people would want to be able to do. I confess, I've done it in basically all the roguelikes... If YOU don't want to, that's fine, just don't block any boss blind. Clearly, you have also played way more than me; you like it more than me, I will never reach 400 hours into this and it's fine, I'm not screaming that this game is BAD, I had fun with it, but it does become frustrating... It does need balancing imo. I'll ask you the same question as I asked Razzberry: is the game PERFECTLY balanced?

[RazzberryMocha]

Originally posted by Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos:

@Razzberry
Well I won't see luchador (and similar boss blind counters) on a ton of runs. There are 150 after all, I can't reroll 2-3 times per round unless I have a money making joker... I can't disagree that a baron run WOULD be risky but from what I understand, it's also the only way to get to ante 32 (or something like that). I see that you've definitely played more than me but come on dude, just answer this: should the "no discard" boss blind be in "Golden Needle"? AND is the came PERFECTLY balanced? Perfectly does not mean "good" or "great", mind you. It means that it is absolutely perfect and simply can never be improved.

Simply put, game is balanced around around ante 8. I don't feel it's fair to call the game unfair for an endless strategy, much less the most powerful of them all, having some form of counterplay from the game. Every build is a balance of risk/reward, and whether that risk is draw consistency or boss blinds it's up to you to know when to commit to certain decisions based upon the context and knowledge you have of the current run and the game as a whole.
Additionally, the whole point of boss blinds is to encourage diversity in how you play. High card and straight builds are in my opinion some of the strongest types of builds for ante 8 due to their reward outweighing their risk to a greater degree than other strategies. The removal of polarizing boss blind effects would shift this to where the most consistent strategies would be the flashiest combos, as their consistency would skyrocket while still maintaining absurd reward.
As for challenges such as the water appearing in golden needle I will agree that is pretty stupid. In the balance update they did remove certain boss blinds form certain challenges such as verdant leaf from jokerless and I'd like to see that extended towards other examples.

[Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos]

@Razzberry
Good enough; I definitely hope (for people that have NOT cleared all the challenges yet) that said boss blind is removed of that one. I think that there ARE also some stuff that just feel wrong (like getting an eternal luchador or egg joker or the one that clones another joker if you sell after 2 rounds), but I'll agree that those are very minor. Maybe make them ALWAYS "sellable" BUT they can't be destroyed when they are eternal? Like, it would not "remove" eternal completely, at least. If you disagree with this one: agree to disagree cause yes, it is minor and I don't care enough to argue about this one, tbf.

I also agree that 1 high card is definitely the "best" build in terms of being reliable or going to high antes; it makes the 100,000,000 points achievement trivial at best (super easy), but it does feel "wrong", since, you know, this is a game related to poker. I don't care about this one as well though, it just "feels wrong" but I'm cool with it, since it carried me for a few challenges + achievements.

[Seneca]

Originally posted by Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos:

@Razzberry
Good enough; I definitely hope (for people that have NOT cleared all the challenges yet) that said boss blind is removed of that one. I think that there ARE also some stuff that just feel wrong (like getting an eternal luchador or egg joker or the one that clones another joker if you sell after 2 rounds), but I'll agree that those are very minor. Maybe make them ALWAYS "sellable" BUT they can't be destroyed when they are eternal? Like, it would not "remove" eternal completely, at least. If you disagree with this one: agree to disagree cause yes, it is minor and I don't care enough to argue about this one, tbf.

I also agree that 1 high card is definitely the "best" build in terms of being reliable or going to high antes; it makes the 100,000,000 points achievement trivial at best (super easy), but it does feel "wrong", since, you know, this is a game related to poker. I don't care about this one as well though, it just "feels wrong" but I'm cool with it, since it carried me for a few challenges + achievements.

You can't get eternal luchador by the way. As for eternal egg, it is very useful with temperance value (you can get $50 max from it) and with the swashbuckler. Also, the current meta hand is actually pairs, it has the same advantage with high card but more joker synergies and better planet scaling.

[Seneca]

Also, because it's uncommon, luchador can still proc baseball card, so it's an extra x1.5.

[Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos]

@Seneca
Yes, you can get eternal luchador; in the eternal joker challenge. I got it yesterday and was like "what???" Another one of those big "but why?" that I have a lot of about the challenges.

Why are cards/vouchers also remaining undiscovered if you get them in challenges? I mean, this is also INCREDIBLY minor, I admit, this is petty, but just... Why? lol...

What you said about temperance + swashbuckler = ok, yes, this is true. Still feels weird imo, but if you like it this way: I won't argue, it's fine.

[w0rM.9™]

I guess I just don't have the patience for this game. Another run of wasted time under my belt with the idiotic Violet Vessel boss blind. Nothing unfair about scaling the points by 300%, right? I haven't had this much fun since my last root canal.

[Seneca]

Originally posted by Honorable Sir Ricard De Milos:

@Seneca
Yes, you can get eternal luchador; in the eternal joker challenge. I got it yesterday and was like "what???" Another one of those big "but why?" that I have a lot of about the challenges.

Why are cards/vouchers also remaining undiscovered if you get them in challenges? I mean, this is also INCREDIBLY minor, I admit, this is petty, but just... Why? lol...

What you said about temperance + swashbuckler = ok, yes, this is true. Still feels weird imo, but if you like it this way: I won't argue, it's fine.

Oh, you mean typecast challenge? I thought you're talking about normal run, challenges are unique ofc. Heck, there's a challenge that wants you to win jokerless, (and temperance/WoF still appear, so eternal luchador don't even feel that weird). Anyway, the dev don't allow cards/vouchers to be undiscovered through challenges because the nature of some decks that make it so much easier to unlock certain jokers/vouchers, so i get it why the dev won't allow that.

[Seneca]

Originally posted by w0rM.9™:

I guess I just don't have the patience for this game. Another run of wasted time under my belt with the idiotic Violet Vessel boss blind. Nothing unfair about scaling the points by 300%, right? I haven't had this much fun since my last root canal.

Yeah, this game isn't for every for everyone. I was also frustrated in the beginning, but once I played for like 100-150 hours, I got so much better at the game that I can anticipate most of the bosses. As for VV, it's definitely a run killer in purple stake onward. and there's little you can do about it.