Possible bug, possibly intended behavior?

[iheartdaikaiju]

Typically a debuff means no jokers can have an effect on a card. However, when playing with the Smeared Joker, disabled cards can still contribute toward a flush, even if they are of different suit.

It is my opinion - probably an unpopular one as it would mean nerfing a current strategic workaround that can currently dramatically reduce the challenge of many bosses - that debuffing a wildcard (including a card made partly wild by the smeared joker) should force it into a suit for scoring _and_ handmaking. They should still count as wild when debuffs are _being applied_ - so debuffing all my hearts with smeared joker should hit my diamonds - but I do not believe I should then be able to make a flush with diamonds and hearts together.

This would make the game more consistent with the way wildcards are treated elsewhere in the game. Even if this is not a bug, the strategic advantage the Smeared Joker gives you in handmaking is something every Balatro player should know about.

[ulzgoroth]

Is it true that debuff means no jokers can have an effect? Or does it mean that the card doesn't score, so card scoring effects don't happen? Those are quite different. I'm not sure exactly what the debuff rule is, but I suspect it's closer to the latter.

Debuffed cards certainly can be used to form hands.

[RazzberryMocha]

While the game says a debuffed card loses its suit/rank/effects, it only means that for scoring and not for making hands or for joker effects. While something like a photograph can't work with a debuffed face card since photograph requires it to score, smeared joker is more like a global effect, something that changes the game rules instead of directly interacting with your cards. Also, jokers can directly interact with debuffed cards. Flower pot will still grant x3 mult even if every card is debuffed since it only checks if your hand contains a card of each suit (In an update they even changed flower pot to specifically work with debuffed cards. Before, a card of every suit needed to score).

[iheartdaikaiju]

I understand what you're saying, but this behavior is inconsistent. For example, if you have the Blurry Joker, a Wildcard, and are facing The Heart, I just tested this, and a Queen of Clubs, Wild Queen (originally hearts), 10 of Clubs, 6 of Spades, and 5 of Clubs, is counting as a Pair.

I feel like this situation requires a bit more clarification beyond what you've posted, because in this case, the debuff does in fact not only prevent making a hand, but prevents a joker effect as well.

I am not saying any behavior is correct or incorrect. I am saying the rules need to be consistent and knowable in advance.

EDIT : Additionally, again just tested, even though the Wild Jack is debuffed, a Wild Jack (originally Clubs), Ace of Clubs, Queen of Spades, Jack of Spades, and 7 of Clubs, also against The Heart, forms a _flush_, not a _pair_ .

So this is demonstrably inconsistent between Wild cards and Blurry Joker.

It is my suspicion that Blurry Joker is being applied _after_ card effects are applied, _and_ after debuffs are considered. But there are other jokers that do _not_ get to apply during similar (though not the same, as you pointed out with the flower pot) window. There seems to be a phase (which we should document), at the end of hand formation and immediately before reporting, during which debuffs will not apply.

[zirune]

That's not inconsistent, though.

Smeared Joker makes hearts and diamonds be considered the same, and clubs and spades be considered the same.

Queen of Clubs, Wild Queen (originally hearts), 10 of Clubs, 6 of Spades, and 5 of Clubs

If a suit is debuffed, all wild cards are debuffed. This is because a wild card is considered every suit. When a card is debuffed, it loses its effects. One of those effects that is lost is being a wild card. That means that the wild Qh is now just a Qh, making this hand a pair because you have 4 black cards and 1 red card. Even with smeared joker, that's not a flush.

And before you say "but if it's just a regular old Qh now, why is it still being debuffed?", to which the answer is that this would make an infinite loop of wild card -> debuffed -> not wild -> not debuffed -> wild card. There has to be a stopping point, and the stopping point is that it is debuffed and considered not wild.

Wild Jack (originally Clubs), Ace of Clubs, Queen of Spades, Jack of Spades, and 7 of Clubs

Again, the wild Jc is debuffed and now considered just a Jc. With a smeared joker, these cards are all still spades or clubs, making this hand still a flush.

Debuffs or not, the joker's effect is still applying.

[malogoss]

Debuffed cards don't contribute to score (no chips, no +mult from enhancement, etc) and they don't trigger jokers when scored (because, well, they don't actually score). That's it.

Apply those rules and a debuffed wild Jack is still affected by Smeared Joker. It will turn a hand into a flush if the Smeared Joker effect makes it possible.

In the example you gave above, a debuffed wild Joker (originally Clubs) is no longer wild, it counts as a spade because of Smeared, it can be part of a Spade or Clubs flush.

The same Jack could contribute to make a Flower Pot work. It counts as a spade or a clubs in your hand. But that same Jack, when a flush hand is played, would not trigger Arrowhead or Onyx Agate, because those jokers need the Jack to score for them to trigger.

[iheartdaikaiju]

I think your justifications are great, I agree there is not necessarily an inconsistency here. My goal was less to argue with you all and more to provide clarification and Zirune's post did a great job where that is concerned, so, have an award.

Just to sum up and please correct this if anything is dishonest,

* (Requires experimentation) Debuff on Stone card : Stone permanently removes suit, so this has no effect
* Debuff on wild card : Card reverts to original suit
* Debuff on hearts/clubs or diamonds/spades under Blurry Joker : A card's suit is not a buff, so the Blurry Joker can continue working as per usual when forming flushes

If there are any other confusing edge cases you all can find and comment on it would be appreciated, bonus if you can experiment in a game to make sure your assumptions hold.