Vampire -> Midas -> Vampire doesn't work

[Abigaliz]

I had what I thought was an OP setup: two vampires with one Midas between them.

I thought the first vampire would consume the enhancement, then Midas would turn the card into gold, and then the last vampire would consume the gold again.

But this didn't work; if the first vampire activates, then the second vampire does nothing.

I thought maybe it's because both vampires trigger at the same time, but this isn't the case: if I played a non enhanced card, the first vampire would not trigger (as expected) but then Midas would turn it into gold and then the second vampire DOES trigger.

So I'd assume this is most likely a bug.

[Draco18s]

Not a bug.

Vampire triggers during the "check jokers for upgrades based on hand played" phase, while Midas triggers during the "card is being scored" phase.

So the order here is Vampire, Vampire, [King], Midas, [Queen], Midas...

[Abigaliz]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Not a bug.

Vampire triggers during the "check jokers for upgrades based on hand played" phase, while Midas triggers during the "card is being scored" phase.

So the order here is Vampire, Vampire, [King], Midas, [Queen], Midas...

But that doesn't explain why if I place Midas after the Vampire (assuming I have only one) then Midas triggers first, turning the card into gold, and then the Vampire triggers, removing the gold and upgrading itself.

[malogoss]

Okay so no guarantee here, I'm half guessing, but I think it's possible that the experimental beta fixes this.

Both Midas and Vampire only affect scoring cards in that version. So I guess their order would change everything, and Vamp - Midas - Vamp would be working. As I said, mostly a wild guess but it would make sense?

If you want to try experimental beta, Steam library, right click Balatro, properties, beta.

But yeah. Both Midas and Vampire got nerfed. What's more, Vampire scaling was cut by 50%. They are still good jokers, but in the current live version they are (were) clearly OP. Personally, I think Vampire should have its scaling cut in half, yes, but still absorb enhancements of all played cards. The nerfed Midas is just fine.

[Draco18s]

Originally posted by Abigaliz:

But that doesn't explain why if I place Midas after the Vampire (assuming I have only one) then Midas triggers first, turning the card into gold, and then the Vampire triggers, removing the gold and upgrading itself.

Because PEMDAS.

That is: Parentheses, exponents, multiplication and division, then addition and subtraction. Or rather a comparable system.

There are several phases of execution:

Before a hand is scored (Boss effects such as The Ox, Space Joker), during hand scoring (cards played, jokers that trigger "on scored"), cards-held-in-hand (Shoot the Moon, Baron), and finally Jokers (Square Joker, Misprint, etc).

Vampire happens before hand scoring. Midas happens during hand scoring.

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Originally posted by Winter Wolf:

But really I am just complaining (go figure!) that Baron is not very good compared to say Steel on a King.

Baron and Steel King take effect at the same time: when held cards are evaluated.

It should also be noted that when a single card is evaluated, there's an order of operations there too.

Card's own value (if relevant, including bonus chips), card's own enhancement (mult, etc), card's own edition, card's own seal, then joker effects (left to right).

Oh, and Space Joker happens before anything else, except the Boss effect, which goes absolutely first.

(More accurately: all jokers are checked for upgrades, left to right, as soon as cards are played, but there aren't that many that upgrade based on hand-played; but this happens after boss effect and before any played cards are evaluated).

-- https://steamcommunity.com/app/2379780/discussions/0/4293691221504881762/#c4293691221506632026

[Abigaliz]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Vampire happens before hand scoring. Midas happens during hand scoring.

But then why does both Midas -> Vampire and Vampire -> Midas work as you expect them to?

If vampire happens before scoring, then Midas->Vampire shouldn't work, but it does.

If what you said was accurate , then the order wouldn't matter. But it does.

[phantom]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Vampire happens before hand scoring. Midas happens during hand scoring.

Midas works on cards not scored. Also vampire can score after Midas so that is a load of junk.

The original poster even said that yet you went and linked a whole other thread and quote from them? You know when you try to sound smart over both a misunderstanding and something you are wrong about it just shows you are being dumb?

[Goblin]

Originally posted by phantom:

Midas works on cards not scored.

Not in the latest prerelease. But OP hasn't even told us which version we're talking about here.
I could swear I tested this sometime way back and it worked though, but that may have involved Brainstorm? But a disparity between a second vampire and a brainstorm copying vampire would be even weirder. Would make more sense to me if it was a conscious debuff by LocalThunk in the prerelease version, since he debuffed so much about these cards anyway. Can't really test right now but might check tomorrow.

[Ronald Brain]

Originally posted by Abigaliz:

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Vampire happens before hand scoring. Midas happens during hand scoring.

But then why does both Midas -> Vampire and Vampire -> Midas work as you expect them to?

If vampire happens before scoring, then Midas->Vampire shouldn't work, but it does.

If what you said was accurate , then the order wouldn't matter. But it does.

To put it simply: Joker activates from left-to-right. So depending on HOW you want to achieve the effect, the setup will be:
-Preserve Gold cards: Turn them into Gold with Midas FIRST. Then, when you have Vampire, order is Vampire -> Midas. When playing Gold Cards, Vampire sucks, then Midas turn them Gold again, ready for the next wave.
-Just Suck It: Midas -> Vampire. When playing normal Face Cards, Midas turn them Gold, then Vampire sucks, face cards go back to normal and ready for next wave.

[Abigaliz]

Originally posted by Ronald Brain:

To put it simply: Joker activates from left-to-right. So depending on HOW you want to achieve the effect, the setup will be:
-Preserve Gold cards: Turn them into Gold with Midas FIRST. Then, when you have Vampire, order is Vampire -> Midas. When playing Gold Cards, Vampire sucks, then Midas turn them Gold again, ready for the next wave.
-Just Suck It: Midas -> Vampire. When playing normal Face Cards, Midas turn them Gold, then Vampire sucks, face cards go back to normal and ready for next wave.

I know this. The problem is that vampire -> midas -> vampire doesn't work.

Vampire -> Midas works correctly. Midas -> Vampire does too. But having three doesn't trigger all the effects it's supposed to.

[Ratch]

For what it's worth, this doesn't seem to be a bug with Midas in tow, but rather a bug with 2 Vamps. I remember I had Pareidolia and Midas... might've been during one of the challenges that has pareidolia as negative. I duplicated a Vamp and had to swap the Vamps back and forth to increment the mult they gain. The first one takes everything, every time. Midas would turn every hand gold, first vamp would succ em up and second vamp got nothing. Only if I swapped the vamps would the second Vamp gain mult.

I tried this a second time after seeing Hit the Road and similar Jokers both get boosted when duplicated. Vamp just doesn't play along.

Vamp seems to only activate the succ once per hand played, regardless of duplicates, so I assume that's why it's not triggering twice. I wonder if Blueprint/Brainstorm would enable two sucks or if it would be two xMult. Probably the latter.

[Jack Ketch]

Regarding Blueprint and Vampire - Blueprint duplicates the xMult on the Vampire card, but does not drain the enhancements from cards (only Vampire does).