Balatro feels too luck based, and the problem is the meta

[CynosureTheTank]

I love Balatro as a game. It's super fun! However, despite my over 24 hours of play time, i've only gotten 12 wins total, with only 2 not on white stake. And i've lost a lot too. The game is awesome, but I hate how luck based it is. Many runs die because I can't get decent jokers, and while I will admit that it may be a skill issue on a higher stake, I lose commonly on lowers stakes as well.

So, why is the game so luck based? Simple. While Planet and Tarot cards can both help a lot, the main thing that'll help you are Jokers. The problem is that many jokers aren't very strong. While yes some aren't for scoring better and some are for effects, it's not excusable when a joker does nothing but give score and yet ends up being terrible. To make matters worse, only a handful of late-game jokers can synergize well depending on deck. If you don't get them? You're probably screwed. And in a game with 150 jokers, it's likely you won't get them.

[Ronald Brain]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από snakeskip:

I understand what you're saying. But I very much disagree about it being a fault of the game.

I'm not (yet) able to win most runs on higher stakes. But I'm just a casual with some 130 hours under my belt. I'm still learning the basics. Skilled players are able to get win streaks on Gold Stake. They don't get funneled into a specific build like we often do.

It is an issue, yes. A skill issue, that is.

I didn't say it's a "fault", it's more like a "design choice" that makes Balatro "feels" luck-based. Granted, skilled players win a lot more than casual, but the problem is that unseeded run are brutal on higher stake due to the stickers, and it now feels like you're trying to survive only to get killed mid-run either by hard countered boss that you can't get out of or good Jokers perished with nothing to replace, etc...

Now, the reason I focused on the boss blind is because they directly influence your build, which means you die 9 out of 10 time due to hard countered boss blind. Normally, this wouldn't be an issue if the game gives you *some* sort of counter that's accessible consistently. Balatro however, chose to leave all this to seed RNG, so if you don't luck into Luchador, Reroll Tag, or Director's Cut, you're guaranteed to lose, with NO skill required. This is where most people get frustrated about.

One can argue about "build your deck to beat all boss blind, git gud". This is what I already pointed out, you're at the seed's mercy to do so, if the seed doesn't give you scaling / unconditional +chip / +mult Jokers, you're FORCED into certain build just to survive... only for a boss blind to kill your run in Ante 5-6, which you can't get out of. That is definitely anti-fun.

In older patch, "Holding R" is infamous for brute force a good starting shop because without it, you won't get far past Ante 1. Now, "Holding R" becomes "finding the first non-sticker Joker", because the amount of Perishable, Rental are so high that you have to wonder is it worth to try to survive with them knowing a boss blind can always end your run later on. Again, not very fun, but at least we have the choice.

[srn347]

No game design is capable of saving the player from their own defeatism. If a player decides "this is a bad start, I'm gonna hold R" (it often isn't actually a bad start, I've seen people reset so many amazing starts) or "this boss counters me, I lose" (at least TRY for pete's sake), they've defeated themself through no fault of the game. And then they turn around and say it's the game's fault. I'm glad localthunk doesn't read the steam discussions, there's way too much misinformation around here.

[Yextiny]

I've not read the thread so far but dog if you're 24 hours in and only barely ever winning, you need to engage with more of the mechanics. I was struggling until I learned that arcana and planet packs are often essential to a successful run, and you gotta work towards turning your deck into a machine that produces the hands you want, and jokers that turn that hand into big numbers.

The order of your jokers matters too; they process left to right, so you want xMult cards after +mult and +chips.

[Athos Atreides]

Yeah I'm starting to see where my dumb mistakes cause most losses. Balatro University still loses sometimes but it's usually bad luck and mistakes.

[Ssjbryando]

Hm, took me about 2-4 hours I think to get the ''ah, thats the strat'' blind, and now white is a fairly easy win.

Jokers indeed, multi, skip a blind whenever theres the ''free joker with foil w/e'' - flush is very easy to do, planet focus on leveling one type, I rarely buy the tarot or deck cards (are these good?) Still new to the game though

[The Dude]

luck > skill

[Thorstorm]

SsSsSskill issue.

[snakeskip]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ssjbryando:

skip a blind whenever theres the ''free joker with foil w/e''

Free Joker is tempting but quite often you'll get offered a Joker that you don't need. When that's the case, you didn't gain anything. Instead you've just lost a shop, the income and the development of your existing Jokers and your deck you get by playing a blind. It can be a huge loss. Many beginners might walk into that trap.

I choose the free Joker when I'm quite confident I can accept almost any Joker with the modifier. Or when I'm in such a strong position that I don't need to play more blinds. On higher stakes that's seldom the case.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ssjbryando:

I rarely buy the tarot or deck cards (are these good?) Still new to the game though

Tarot cards are extremely powerful. It might not be obvious at first, but you'll see eventually. It's difficult to reach high scores without altering your deck. And you need to reach higher scores on higher stakes. Besides that, Tarot cards in hand will often help you get out of tricky situations.

[grizdotcom]

I don't know, I managed to get two misprints and a blueprint and still messed up because I forgot to read the blind requirements lol For me it's not paying attention and being impulsive

[JtDarth]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από snakeskip:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ssjbryando:

skip a blind whenever theres the ''free joker with foil w/e''

Free Joker is tempting but quite often you'll get offered a Joker that you don't need. When that's the case, you didn't gain anything. Instead you've just lost a shop, the income and the development of your existing Jokers and your deck you get by playing a blind. It can be a huge loss. Many beginners might walk into that trap.

I choose the free Joker when I'm quite confident I can accept almost any Joker with the modifier. Or when I'm in such a strong position that I don't need to play more blinds. On higher stakes that's seldom the case.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ssjbryando:

I rarely buy the tarot or deck cards (are these good?) Still new to the game though

Tarot cards are extremely powerful. It might not be obvious at first, but you'll see eventually. It's difficult to reach high scores without altering your deck. And you need to reach higher scores on higher stakes. Besides that, Tarot cards in hand will often help you get out of tricky situations.

I mean, hermit and temperance on their own can save runs, even before we talk about deck modifications. God forbid we talk about wheel and how it polying a joker can just instantly bust a run.

[fheadx]

Balatro is my first roguelike. Picked it up because I'm a poker player. First win was after about 4-5 hours. Used the yellow deck to beat orange stakes and unlock all the decks. Haven't bothered with gold stakes yet, as there's no gameplay payoff for beating it. Biggest hand so far is 2.6 billion and it came pretty early in my ~180 hours of the game. White stakes is an auto win now if I'm not experimenting.

I didn't look at any guides until yesterday, Balatro University. Wow. This guy knows all the cards and all the angles. One thing he does is talk out his thinking, and you should, too.

[Goblin]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από snakeskip:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Ssjbryando:

skip a blind whenever theres the ''free joker with foil w/e''

Free Joker is tempting but quite often you'll get offered a Joker that you don't need. When that's the case, you didn't gain anything. Instead you've just lost a shop, the income and the development of your existing Jokers and your deck you get by playing a blind. It can be a huge loss. Many beginners might walk into that trap.

I choose the free Joker when I'm quite confident I can accept almost any Joker with the modifier. Or when I'm in such a strong position that I don't need to play more blinds. On higher stakes that's seldom the case.

An early free Holographic joker is pretty much a guaranteed pick, since even if the joker is thrash the mult from Holo can get you through an ante. Free Negative is virtually always worth it. And in both cases, at least in a pinch you can always sell them for probably more than you would have earned unless you have a useful econ card. Only Foil is rarely worth it.
A lot of people are skipping way too often, and the people resetting until they get particular skips probably have issues, but some of the new free tags are too good to pass up in quite a lot of scenarios. I still think it should've probably been a 50% discount instead of free.
Edit: except Foil. The foil tag is already bad enough now that it's free. It being the only free one would've been a nice relative balance method.

[JtDarth]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Goblin:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από snakeskip:

Free Joker is tempting but quite often you'll get offered a Joker that you don't need. When that's the case, you didn't gain anything. Instead you've just lost a shop, the income and the development of your existing Jokers and your deck you get by playing a blind. It can be a huge loss. Many beginners might walk into that trap.

I choose the free Joker when I'm quite confident I can accept almost any Joker with the modifier. Or when I'm in such a strong position that I don't need to play more blinds. On higher stakes that's seldom the case.

An early free Holographic joker is pretty much a guaranteed pick, since even if the joker is thrash the mult from Holo can get you through an ante. Free Negative is virtually always worth it. And in both cases, at least in a pinch you can always sell them for probably more than you would have earned unless you have a useful econ card. Only Foil is rarely worth it.
A lot of people are skipping way too often, and the people resetting until they get particular skips probably have issues, but some of the new free tags are too good to pass up in quite a lot of scenarios. I still think it should've probably been a 50% discount instead of free.
Edit: except Foil. The foil tag is already bad enough now that it's free. It being the only free one would've been a nice relative balance method.

Foil is actually pretty nutty if you can combine it with already high multipliers. It's early game where it doesn't stack up. Later on extra base chip value is often of far more value than an extra 20 mult. When your multipliers are already in the thousands, losing 20 doesn't mean much. But an extra 50 chips? That can actually be worth a lot more than the 20 mult.

[Goblin]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από JtDarth:

Foil is actually pretty nutty if you can combine it with already high multipliers. It's early game where it doesn't stack up. Later on extra base chip value is often of far more value than an extra 20 mult. When your multipliers are already in the thousands, losing 20 doesn't mean much. But an extra 50 chips? That can actually be worth a lot more than the 20 mult.

Issue is, with how OP blue seals are your base hand chips scores are going to be high in most runs.
I tend to view everything in terms of xmult. When you have 40 mult, getting a +40 mult joker is the same as an x2. When you have 200 chips already, +50 chips is an x1.25. But 200 chips is... rather low now, unless you're doing a high card run maybe.

So sure, if you have absolutely thrash chip score lategame, no other chip jokers, and for some reason aren't using stone cards, then yeah it's helpful. But at that point you're kinda doing something wrong.

[JtDarth]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Goblin:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από JtDarth:

Foil is actually pretty nutty if you can combine it with already high multipliers. It's early game where it doesn't stack up. Later on extra base chip value is often of far more value than an extra 20 mult. When your multipliers are already in the thousands, losing 20 doesn't mean much. But an extra 50 chips? That can actually be worth a lot more than the 20 mult.

Issue is, with how OP blue seals are your base hand chips scores are going to be high in most runs.
I tend to view everything in terms of xmult. When you have 40 mult, getting a +40 mult joker is the same as an x2. When you have 200 chips already, +50 chips is an x1.25. But 200 chips is... rather low now, unless you're doing a high card run maybe.

So sure, if you have absolutely thrash chip score lategame, no other chip jokers, and for some reason aren't using stone cards, then yeah it's helpful. But at that point you're kinda doing something wrong.

I personally think it's pretty silly you bring up blue seal negating foil, when that blue seal is NOT guaranteed to obtain in the first place, let alone have as part of your hand, or viable for a played hand. As opposed to foil, which is just a flat, non-conditional bonus (outside of one particular blind that nukes jokers). Early on, a free foil joker is going to be a solid investment in multiple ways, and statistically likely to be a better immediate boost than anything you can get naturally in a single shop in the first 2-3 ante, and foil does still scale into endless, unlike flat mult. Polychrome is the ideal, but flat mult on a joker scales out pretty quick in relative boost.

There's also the issue of this silliness like using a '+40 mult joker' as an example for how foil is worse, but there are only a handful of jokers with that capability, let alone unconditionally. It just makes zero sense to be trading a guaranteed bonus for a theoretical one that is statistically unlikely to exceed the guaranteed one.