Magic trick voucher worse than useless?

[brickey.8]

The magic trick voucher (the one that makes regular cards appear in the shop) is absolutely awful. As far as I can tell, it ONLY makes unenhanced cards appear. There's almost no circumstance where you'd want to buy most of those. The only time you'd ever even be tempted is if you're focusing hard on one number (in which case only 1 in 13 will be the right number). But every one of those cards takes away a chance at a card that you'd actually want, so you just have to spend more on rerolls.

I grabbed it on a run with the joker whose multiplier increases with every card you add to the deck, and even then I didn't choose to buy a single one because they would water down my deck.

If this cost $0 it would still be detrimental to most runs.

[TimTim3000]

The other vouchers values aren't situational at all, got it. So if you're doing a High Card build with $11 and you see the +1 hand size voucher, you're snap-buying it no matter what else is in the shop?

[TimTim3000]

Also, there are times when even vouchers like +1 hand size can be detrimental. I'll let others elaborate.

[Rokk]

Messaggio originale di TimTim3000:

The other vouchers values aren't situational at all, got it. So if you're doing a High Card build with $11 and you see the +1 hand size voucher, you're snap-buying it no matter what else is in the shop?

Actually yes I would, because "card held in hand" effects like Steel Cards, Blue Seals, Gold Cards and various jokers like Baron exist. Assuming your economy is built up, this really shouldn't cost you more than about 2 reroll opportunities in the long run, and you might actually get back more money than you spent thanks to the extra gold cards you'll be having in your hand.

Even in the very worst case scenario, +1 hand size is never detrimental. It is one of the more powerful boosts in the game either way, powerful enough that the deck that starts with +2 Hand Size also has 1 joker slot less as a balancing measure (which is something that can really hurt). It's so powerful that one of the best Chips jokers in the game (Stuntman) has -2 hand size as a balancing factor.

Out of all those I don't think the hand size voucher was a good example to pick. You could make a bigger argument for the +1 Discard vouchers, but even those are always good as long as you don't have Green Joker or Burglar.

[Rokk]

Messaggio originale di TimTim3000:

Also, there are times when even vouchers like +1 hand size can be detrimental. I'll let others elaborate.

I don't think there is ever a case where this is true, even if you abuse Perkeo to have a deck that's as big as your hand. You lose if you run out of cards to draw, but I don't believe this triggers until you discard or play your last cards in hand. There's no downside to having an extra card sit in your hand, even if it's unused. There are no bosses or challenges that punish bigger hand sizes either.

[iheartdaikaiju]

Messaggio originale di TimTim3000:

The other vouchers values aren't situational at all, got it. So if you're doing a High Card build with $11 and you see the +1 hand size voucher, you're snap-buying it no matter what else is in the shop?

Well sure, there are a couple of universally good, or nearly so, vouchers that are just grab up when you see them. The thing is, situational vouchers tend to be more powerful than generally good vouchers in the right deck. More tarot cards, for example, can power up several jokers, give you an occasional revenue stream, and provide direct value, but won't do you as much good as increasing your hand size or picking up Hone if you can't take advantage, say you don't have jokers like fortune teller, or your flush level isn't high enough to take advantage of knocking out a suit or two, etc.

Magician is not as good as other situational vouchers at its tier one, but is in my opinion the most powerful - due to being the absolute best source of seal cards - voucher in its tier 2 form. Having an extra joker slot is 2nd best in my view.

I know not everyone is going to feel the way I do about illusion. And I agree, unlike blank, having fewer value cards being sold in the shop is absolutely a detriment. I don't like the idea of changing magician because I feel like it would be paired with a nerf to illusion.

I think the best decks for magician are tarot decks. With tarot decks you're going to be doing a lot of deck modification, you're going to have a sacrifice suit you can turn into other cards, you're going to be picking up standard packs a lot anyway, you are going to focus more on your deck and less on your jokers in these runs. Magician can mean that you can undo mistakes - say you picked Ouija from a spectral and lost one of the cards you needed for a straight at the right probability frequency - and can mean that you boost cards at the suit and rank you like. Especially late game when you don't really need a lot of jokers anyway and are mainly looking to buy a couple tarot singles before opening a pack, having a slot or two filled with a random $1 card can fit very naturally. At this stage of the game when you're full up on jokers you're used to having to reroll anyway and the possibility something good isn't in one of your 2-3 already opened shop slots isn't going to affect your gameplay at all.

I don't think we need to pretend every voucher is equal. They aren't. But I will say that having a hand size one bigger will absolutely not push you past higher level blinds, the way having a few more tarot cards in the shop will. The only vouchers that help you actually continue to ramp are situational vouchers. And two of the situational vouchers have really lousy tier 1 versions you buy only because you want there to be a chance in the late game of coming across the tier 2 and you have extra cash in hand right now.